WI - Parts list correct? Does this plan make sense?

[William Powell]

Hello!

I have a huge mess of a plumbing drain situation so I have been trying to develop a plan to replace the main stack. I have a diagram (sorry its not pretty) and a parts list with the fittings labelled.

Would anyone be willing to help me review and improve my plumbing plan?

Thanks to anyone willing to share insights or even just make fun of specific things I have incorrect! I appreciate your time!

William

Here is the diagram:

Here is the list:

1. 4x4x2 wye (already cemented into basement floor) see other pic for reference of why this work needs done
2. 2" street 45 (as seen in the other photo, already glued in. Will cut pipe after this to adapt to new work. )
3. 2" tee - sani-tee (is this correct, or does it need a different kind of tee?)
4. 2" street 45 &
5. 2" street 45
*6. 2" street 45 &
*7. 2" street 45
8. 2" laundry basin sink trap (could reduce to 1.5" - should I?)
9. 2" 90 elbow vent fitting
10. 4x4x2 sani-tee
11. 4x4x3 sani-tee
**12. 4x4x2 sani-tee upside down (is that correct for venting?)
**13. 4x4x1.5 sani-tee upside down - (same question as above)
14. 4x3 closet bend
15. 2x2x1.5 tee (is that correct for this use?)
16. 1.5" sani-tee
17. 1.5" 90 deg vent fitting
18. 1.5" bath lav trap
19. 2" combo fitting (name?) with cleanout plug and cap
20. sani-tee on its side to get shower vent to existing location - (is a tee on its side okay? with slight slope?)
21. 2" street 45
22. 2" street 45
23. trap for tub - (1.5" okay here?)

* 6 & 7 possibly replaced by 2" combo and cleanout - would that make sense here?
** 12 could be placed above 13

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

From the bottom..
1-What plumbing fixture is the first Wye going to serve? A sink or a Clothes washing machine box? Is the horizontal drain high enough above the floor to accommodate a trap? It must be since it already serves a trap on the left. Some codes still have an outdated yet still enforced provision for clothes washer hook up traps that the center of the trap be located 6" above the floor so you can spin off the cast iron p-trap that you won't be installing.
2- 45 yes
3- A combination fitting or long sweep tee would be preferable. All fittings below the flood level of the fixture should act as drains in case the vent fills with waste.
4&5- combined 45's or a single long sweep would be preferable.
6- Can be 1.5" from the #3 vent fitting through the trap.
7- just use 1 long sweep fitting. More joints = more room for error. Add a cleanout on the vent.
8- the trap arm and trap need to be the same size.. (not sure the reasoning, it seems like a silly code, but its code)
9- Vent connections need to be a min 6" above the flood level of the vent where they combine with other vents on that floor. typically we assume a sink will be 36".. so a vent from any other fixture needs to be 42.
10- Yes, 4x2 San Tee. May as well remove the cast iron from the basement on up to where you are Vent Through the Roof (VTR) probably already the plan.
11- 14 yes - 6" Flood level applies to these connections to a common vent.
15- Combination wye&1/8th bend or Combi for short.. or Long Sweep Tee (big box terminology)
16-yes
17- 90... 6" flood level applies to these connections to a common vent.
18-yes
19- combi here yes..
20- Combination fitting again as a vent under the flood level may need to act as a drain. Also, the take off/Branch needs to come off the invert(air space) of the drain. (UPC code allows that the drain can travel horizontally under the flood level of the fixture.. IPC the vent shall/must be vertical til above the flood level - I'm not proficient in IPC code)
21-22 - you'll probably need a few drainage fittings to get around the tub. Unless you are venting up the wall as you travel under the end wall.
23- 2" drain for a tub, 1.5" trap arm and trap.

Phew.. that was a list!

 

[Sponsor]

 

[William Powell]

1. The wye at the basement floor will serve a "laundry basin sink". I am not sure I have been using proper terminology or not. The washing machine standpipe is being relocated to a different drain branch on opposite side of house. This will just serve the "laundry basin sink". I am not sure I will have the 6" to remove the trap or not. If I do not, should I revise the plan to include a pair of 45s to gain height, then use an AAV? Is there a more elegant solution? I am flexible at this point.

3. That makes total sense, thanks for clarification.
4&5. I will change to long sweep 90
7. Thanks for your insight and clarification, I will certainly take your advice here
8. In this case would I use a 2" trap and adapt it to the 1.5" sink drain with a reduction washer? Like how 1.5 to 1.25 works? or will I need a fitting that reduces to 1.5 for the sink drain?
9. Thank you, that seems like a good rule of thumb to go by, and certainly works for this setup!
10. I do plan to remove everything below the attic, and I hope to make the change from PVC back to the cast inside the attic. This removes the need to replace the VTR termination, as well as the vents that tie in from the shower and kitchen (on opposite side of house). It seems easiest to leave the termination and use rubber couplers, but if it is stupid to do this, or lazy, please tell me!!
11. noted, thank you!
15. Should this look like fitting 19 then? Just turned 90 degrees so the long sweep goes vertical on the vent? Sorry I am not entirely certain I understood this. It does go from vertical to horizonal, so long sweep is needed here?
20. this makes sense again for reasons stated above. It may require the tub drain to drop a longer vertical distance before going into the trap, is there a limit here? I just need to get below the floor joists so the vent can be constructed vertically instead of horizontally (maybe a few inches extra).
21 & 22. The vent currently does share space inside the "controls" wall of the tub/shower. It joins the main stack with a horizontal pipe in the attic. To reuse this path, I have to go "backwards" (away from stack) slightly with the vent. doing so horizontally would be easiest because of floor joists, but I can lower the entire branch and it should work out.
23. Where/ by what means should I reduce the trap arm to 1.5"? I am just unfamiliar here.


I really appreciate all your time and effort it took to go through this list for me. I am sincerely grateful! Sorry for all the follow-ups. I think my plan already got a lot better with your help!

 

[William Powell]

From the bottom..
1-What plumbing fixture is the first Wye going to serve? A sink or a Clothes washing machine box? Is the horizontal drain high enough above the floor to accommodate a trap? It must be since it already serves a trap on the left. Some codes still have an outdated yet still enforced provision for clothes washer hook up traps that the center of the trap be located 6" above the floor so you can spin off the cast iron p-trap that you won't be installing.
2- 45 yes
3- A combination fitting or long sweep tee would be preferable. All fittings below the flood level of the fixture should act as drains in case the vent fills with waste.
4&5- combined 45's or a single long sweep would be preferable.
6- Can be 1.5" from the #3 vent fitting through the trap.
7- just use 1 long sweep fitting. More joints = more room for error. Add a cleanout on the vent.
8- the trap arm and trap need to be the same size.. (not sure the reasoning, it seems like a silly code, but its code)
9- Vent connections need to be a min 6" above the flood level of the vent where they combine with other vents on that floor. typically we assume a sink will be 36".. so a vent from any other fixture needs to be 42.
10- Yes, 4x2 San Tee. May as well remove the cast iron from the basement on up to where you are Vent Through the Roof (VTR) probably already the plan.
11- 14 yes - 6" Flood level applies to these connections to a common vent.
15- Combination wye&1/8th bend or Combi for short.. or Long Sweep Tee (big box terminology)
16-yes
17- 90... 6" flood level applies to these connections to a common vent.
18-yes
19- combi here yes..
20- Combination fitting again as a vent under the flood level may need to act as a drain. Also, the take off/Branch needs to come off the invert(air space) of the drain. (UPC code allows that the drain can travel horizontally under the flood level of the fixture.. IPC the vent shall/must be vertical til above the flood level - I'm not proficient in IPC code)
21-22 - you'll probably need a few drainage fittings to get around the tub. Unless you are venting up the wall as you travel under the end wall.
23- 2" drain for a tub, 1.5" trap arm and trap.

Phew.. that was a list!

That really was a huge list. Thank you SO much!!

 

[William Powell]

This photo might help explain what I mean by working around the floor joist for the tub drain and trap. This is the old tub/shower trap.

The vent is on the opposite side of the floor joist from the tub drain. drain will need to drop this low so trap can clear joist. Is that okay? only like 12"-14" of vertical drop from tub drain to trap should suffice.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

8. In this case would I use a 2" trap and adapt it to the 1.5" sink drain with a reduction washer? Like how 1.5 to 1.25 works? or will I need a fitting that reduces to 1.5 for the sink drain? Same with 23. Your drain from stack to the vent will be 2". That is the minimum drain size for a sink and for a Tub. The trap arm from the point where the drain is vented can transition to 1.5" by way of a reducing combi or reducing bushing in the horizontal run of the fitting. The vent size from each of those fittings is also 1.5.. So in essence you will have a 2x1.5x1.5 combination fitting.

15. Should this look like fitting 19 then? Just turned 90 degrees so the long sweep goes vertical on the vent? Sorry I am not entirely certain I understood this. It does go from vertical to horizonal, so long sweep is needed here? Yes, same fitting, just vertical. All drainage must comply with long sweep fittings when travelling H to H and V to H.. you can use a medium sweep when travelling from V to H..

20. this makes sense again for reasons stated above. It may require the tub drain to drop a longer vertical distance before going into the trap, is there a limit here? I just need to get below the floor joists so the vent can be constructed vertically instead of horizontally (maybe a few inches extra). If you can, use the same fitting orientation as the Laundry basin.. The trap arm of 1.5" is 42"... which is shy of the length of a tub. Maybe you can travel closer to the side of the tub, utilize its dead space to vent vertically then continue to the attic?

21 & 22. The vent currently does share space inside the "controls" wall of the tub/shower. It joins the main stack with a horizontal pipe in the attic. To reuse this path, I have to go "backwards" (away from stack) slightly with the vent. doing so horizontally would be easiest because of floor joists, but I can lower the entire branch and it should work out. the UPC code would allow a combination fitting to be laid over at a 45 which takes the vent off the "invert" of the lateral drain then travel horizontally under the tub to the wall.. The IPC requires the drain to be vertical to a point no less than 6" above the flood level of the fixture.. 45deg is considered vertical.

23. Where/ by what means should I reduce the trap arm to 1.5"? I am just unfamiliar here. Same as 8.

 

[William Powell]

Sir, you are awesome for teaching me all this! I cant stress how much I appreciate your help!

8. That makes complete sense now. I wasn't thinking about what portion was vent versus drain. You really nailed it down for me there, thanks!
15. medium sweep is new on me! I will be googling that immediately! I totally get the logic behind keeping a long radius bend where the flow would normally slow down, like vertical going into horizontal... I corrected a few fittings on my diagram to get it closer to correct.
20. This one I am not entirely sure what you meant here. The 42" thing is throwing me for a bit of a loop. Is that the max trap arm length for 1.5"? I think my diagram proportions are skewing reality here. I drew it further away than reality to keep from having so much overlap on the drawing. Currently the tub has its own vent that goes up into the attic then re-joins the stack horizontally. (This vent is located inside the shower controls wall and is only about 12-14" away from the tub drain. - See photo in post above.) I think they did it like this because the layout of the bathroom placed the tub drain too far away (in terms of developed pipe length) to use the same vent as the bathroom sink/lav (which is apparently pretty common?). I think my updated diagram would physically work, assuming it is truly okay in WI to use the 45 = vertical logic.
23. again, makes sense once I hear it, but wasn't clicking for me before. This is my first time diving into plumbing and my lack of experience is crippling me! Thank you sooo much for helping out someone who wants to do things right!

Here is the updated diagram: (note the scale estimate to help make the diagram more clear. This was drawn stretched out to avoid overlapping drawing features.)

Here is the updated list:

1. 4x4x2 wye (already cemented into basement floor) see other pic for reference of why this work needs done
2. 2" street 45 (as seen in the other photo, already glued in. Will cut pipe after this to adapt to new work. )
3. 2" combo fitting
4. eliminated
5. 1.5" LT 90 fitting
6. 1.5" combo fitting, with cleanout
7. eliminated
8. 1.5" trap for "laundry basin" sink
9. 2" 90 elbow vent fitting
10. 4x4x2 sani-tee
11. 4x4x3 sani-tee
**12. 4x4x2 sani-tee upside down
**13. 4x4x1.5 sani-tee upside down -
14. 4x3 closet bend
15. 2" combo fitting with 1.5" reducer bushing at top for sink drain. Is this okay for this section because the piping is only sink drain, it is not both sink and tub drain? I ask because you mentioned 2" is minimum drain for sink and tub, but I wasn't sure if you meant that is when the pipe is serving as the drain for both fixtures. Sorry for the continued confusion. I think I know what you mean, but the devil is in the details... I labelled the pipe size with what I think you are saying, but please correct if I am missing the point here.
16. 1.5" sani-tee
17. 1.5" 90 deg vent fitting
18. 1.5" bath lav trap
19. 1.5" combo fitting with cleanout plug and cap
20. 1.5" combo fitting (at 45deg from horizontal)
21. eliminated
22. 1.5 "45 deg elbow or street 45
23. 1.5" tub trap
24. slip joint wall adapter 1.5"
25. 2" to 1.5" reducer bushing
26. 2" to 1.5" reducer bushing
27. 2" cleanout tee with cap
28. 2" to 1.5" reducer bushing
29. 4" cleanout tee with cap ( does this make sense to add?)

I also noted the pipe size for quicker mental image. its getting to be a busy diagram, but there is a lot of information here!

 

[William Powell]

8. In this case would I use a 2" trap and adapt it to the 1.5" sink drain with a reduction washer? Like how 1.5 to 1.25 works? or will I need a fitting that reduces to 1.5 for the sink drain? Same with 23. Your drain from stack to the vent will be 2". That is the minimum drain size for a sink and for a Tub. The trap arm from the point where the drain is vented can transition to 1.5" by way of a reducing combi or reducing bushing in the horizontal run of the fitting. The vent size from each of those fittings is also 1.5.. So in essence you will have a 2x1.5x1.5 combination fitting.

15. Should this look like fitting 19 then? Just turned 90 degrees so the long sweep goes vertical on the vent? Sorry I am not entirely certain I understood this. It does go from vertical to horizonal, so long sweep is needed here? Yes, same fitting, just vertical. All drainage must comply with long sweep fittings when travelling H to H and V to H.. you can use a medium sweep when travelling from V to H..

20. this makes sense again for reasons stated above. It may require the tub drain to drop a longer vertical distance before going into the trap, is there a limit here? I just need to get below the floor joists so the vent can be constructed vertically instead of horizontally (maybe a few inches extra). If you can, use the same fitting orientation as the Laundry basin.. The trap arm of 1.5" is 42"... which is shy of the length of a tub. Maybe you can travel closer to the side of the tub, utilize its dead space to vent vertically then continue to the attic?

21 & 22. The vent currently does share space inside the "controls" wall of the tub/shower. It joins the main stack with a horizontal pipe in the attic. To reuse this path, I have to go "backwards" (away from stack) slightly with the vent. doing so horizontally would be easiest because of floor joists, but I can lower the entire branch and it should work out. the UPC code would allow a combination fitting to be laid over at a 45 which takes the vent off the "invert" of the lateral drain then travel horizontally under the tub to the wall.. The IPC requires the drain to be vertical to a point no less than 6" above the flood level of the fixture.. 45deg is considered vertical.

23. Where/ by what means should I reduce the trap arm to 1.5"? I am just unfamiliar here. Same as 8.

thanks again!
William

 

[William Powell]

Could another 3" branch be ran to add a master bathroom in the future? Is that thing? Can I do provisions for it now that get capped off, that way the stack has necessary fittings when the time comes and wont require complete rework?

I know this is getting ahead of myself a bit, but I would love to add a master bath to this house. 1.0 baths looks soooo bad on paper. Doing a second bathroom on other side of shower back wall would be perfect and take space from master bedroom.

We don't have to get into any details on this idea if it simply isn't allowed for some reason. I suppose there is always the option of doing another stack and tapping into the current underground drain pipe that way, right? Sounds like a lot more work beneath the concrete and a lot less practical cost/benefit speaking.

Thanks for your input folks!

William

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

A 3" pipe can have up to 3 toilets horizontally.

 

[William Powell]

A 3" pipe can have up to 3 toilets horizontally.

Awesome!! Thanks again! Do you know by chance is there any distance limits for fixture to stack that might prevent this? It's not that far, but I'm curious now... I do plan to vent them thru roof separately as shown in red.

I removed everything from the stack just above the wye in the basement floor to just below the vent connection back into the stack in the attic. I purchased all my fittings and will being to mock them up tomorrow, and I hope to be gluing them together by Friday. Thanks a ton for your continued help!

 

[William Powell]

Is this a reasonable location to use a 4" cleanout adapter to join the old work to the new work above? It seems reasonable to me, and would finish off nicer than a pvc hub/hub coupling...

Any reason that's a bad idea?

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

You should familiarize yourself with UPC chapter 7 Table 703.2 which will show you the Maximum distances between traps and vents. I also shows the Maximum distance for horizontal drainage (hint: its unlimited)

That is a perfect location for a Clean out Tee or Wye.. which will be your pressure test device location as well.

 

[William Powell]

Made some good progress today, but did not complete the leg for the "laundry basin sink". I am debating if it is smarter to put sink to north instead of south. The drain pipes would be unnecessarily close to the sink if I go on the south side, but if I go north, past the water heater, I could keep the sink out there.

I went over table 703.2 but I must be dense!! If it is showing max distance between traps and vents, I am not understanding the table properly. I do see where it mentions the unlimited lengths for horizontal drains, which is pretty interesting!

The only pop up issue I see with going north past the water heater is that would make the trap about 2 feet further from the vent fitting location (about 7 feet of developed length) and would cause issues with trap arm maximum length, right? To go with a trap 7 feet from the vent, wouldn't the trap and trap arm need to be 2" in diameter?

If that is the case, and I now have to run a 2" trap due to trap arm length, do I use a slip joint trap adapter to reduce down to the size of the sink drain tailpiece? I am not familiar enough with the hardware, but I couldn't find a 2" to 1.5" slip-joint/trap adapter at the orange store, so I figured I am doing something wrong here. Can you help me regroup? I think it ties back to the max trap arm lengths that I have been struggling with this whole time (so embarrassing!).

Thanks for your time and assistance getting this far!


(please excuse all the stray pex and prison shower)

 

[William Powell]

You should familiarize yourself with UPC chapter 7 Table 703.2 which will show you the Maximum distances between traps and vents. I also shows the Maximum distance for horizontal drainage (hint: its unlimited)

That is a perfect location for a Clean out Tee or Wye.. which will be your pressure test device location as well.

I went with the dedicated cleanout fitting because I saw it first at the orange store. I managed to get 1/4 bubble line break on each segment so far, but they don't hold position at the moment because they seem to pop out. When fully seated the slopes actually look dead on! I got a little bit lucky, but also took my time and thought out the total drop for developed lengths, etc.

So far I have only added one J hook support, but will add one or two more on the shower drain run.

Anything jumping out as super wrong??

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Looks good to me. The clean out tee utilizes a Clean Seal balloon, or a couple other mechanical seals that allow for easy testing.

As an aside concerning slope.. I was taught to read 1/4" slope on a torpedo level a certain way.. When I later compared that slope to the markings of a level with gradient markings I learned that I had been installing pipe with a Lot less slope than required.

 

[William Powell]

Thank you for the heads up on the proper slope, I will be sure to verify