Help Needed -- Dealer Recommendations in Bay Area (San Jose)?

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randomwalk

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TD;LR: Can anyone recommend knowledgeable independent water treatment companies in the Bay Area (San Jose)? I can't seem to find any when I Google. For example, I can't seem to find anyone who puts together and installs Fleck based systems. I only find proprietary systems (Culligan, Hague, etc.) or companies that do not seem to offer anything except "water softener."


Longer background:
I have an existing Hague Maximizer (series 96) that needs service because water pressure is low. The dealer came out and said the resin is likely bad (due to chlorine). This softener came with the house when we bought it, so I didn't know much about it until now. After some research, the Hague Maximizer looks like a combo media tank where the first stage is a "Ultra-fil" sediment filter (20 micron nominal) and a second stage with "Supersaver Fine Mesh" resin (1 cubic ft.).

We live in San Jose where the water seems decent. Here is the water quality report (we live in the area where the primary water source is ground water): https://www.sjwater.com/sites/default/files/2019-04/CCR-2018.pdf?q=ccr

We are 2 adults and 3 kids. There are 3 baths in the house. In winter months (when we don't use water for landscaping) we use about 150 to 200 gallons per day. Water hardness is high teens, low 20's grains (I think I set the softener at 21 or 22, which works fine). I'd imagine water usage would increase over time as kids get older.

My current choices are:

1) Keep existing setup and replace the filtering media for $550. But I think given the chlorine in the city water (1.53 ppm annual average), we'd have to do this again in probably 5 to 7 years. Also, this system does not filter out chlorine or anything else except sediment, which is a negative.

2) Buy a new Hague unit, WaterMax 63BEQ. Based on what I can find on the internet, this is a 3-stage combo tank. First stage is 2 lbs of KDF-55. Second stage is 0.4 cubic ft. of catalytic carbon (dealer said they would put in catalytic carbon instead of standard e-2 carbon). Third stage is 1 cubic ft. of "fine mesh cation resin." This would cost $3000, maybe a bit lower. I think this system would last longer given the first two stages filters out the chlorine (and to some degree, chloramine). The main advantage of this is that it would fit in the limited space where this has to be installed -- it would sit where the existing system sits. I get the benefit of a 3-stage system, but understand that the stages are maybe "too small" to have maximum filtering effect.

3) Buy a Culligan system. Because the location where this has to be installed has very limited space, they can at most fit a 1.5 cubic ft. softener with a small brine tank. They cannot fit an additional backwash carbon filter due to lack of space, and instead offers a Big Blue 20" carbon cartridge filter mounted on the wall. He said cartridge needs to be replaced annually and they would warranty the resin for life as long as the carbon filter is kept up. This would cost about $3500. The main advantage of this vs. Hague is that the softener is bigger, 1.5 vs 1.0 cubic ft. I am not sure how the Big Blue 20" carbon filter compares to the Hague system with KDF-55 and 0.4 cubic ft. of catalytic carbon. I'm guessing the Big Blue is worse.

4) Buy an independent system. But I don't know where to look or who to talk to. Hence my initial question.
 

Bannerman

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or companies that do not seem to offer anything except "water softener."
Those are often the dealers to contact.

Proprietary equipment is generally not recommended as supply is usually limited to only their dealer network. Parts and service are also usually limited to their dealer network, so with no one else to call, you would be at their mercy for prices charged.

Most homeowners would not know the name Fleck or Clack and as their valves are utilized by many softener 'brands' and independent dealers, the valves usually do not prominently highlight the control valve manufacturer's brand name.

a combo media tank where the first stage is a "Ultra-fil" sediment filter (20 micron nominal) and a second stage with "Supersaver Fine Mesh" resin (1 cubic ft.).

Does your water contain visible sediment so that a sediment filter is actually needed?

Fine mesh resin is normally marketed for homeowners with private wells where the softener will be removing iron. With your chlorinated municipal water, the chlorine will oxidize ferrous iron to ferric iron (rust) which is easily filtered out with a simple cartridge sediment filter and will not increase the softening load. With a municipal distribution system, iron sediment is usually negligible when the water arrives at your home.

Even where the softener will be removing iron, fine mesh resin is typically not recommended as it can create a higher than desired flow restriction through the softener.

The hardness level should be accurately tested at your specific location using a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit. Municipal water will often be obtained from multiple sources and each may have a different hardness quantity. Your location within the system will often influence which source the bulk of your water is obtained from. As hardness can vary in the system depending on demand, maintenance, season etc, it is recommended to add 2-3 grains per gallon hardness to the quantity as tested, to anticipate times when hardness may be higher and additional softening capacity will be consumed.

Using your estimated 22 gpg hardness X 5 people X 60 gallons/person/day (estimated eventual consumption) = 6,600 grains per day. The recommended sizing is to obtain a large enough unit so regeneration is not required more than 1X per week while using an efficient salt and capacity setting.

A softener containing 1.5 cuft of resin, will deliver 36,000 usable grains capacity when regenerated with 12 lbs salt. 36K / 6,600 = 5.5 days - 1 day reserve = 4 days estimated regeneration frequency which is more frequent than normally recommended.

A 2 cuft unit will deliver 48K grains with 16 lbs salt which will provide 6 estimated days between regen cycles.

A 2.5 cuft unit will deliver 60K grains with 20 lbs salt which will result in approx 8 days between cycles. This is the size softener you should be considering.

Each of the above is based on using 8 lbs salt per cuft of resin. These settings are intended to provide a balance of good quality soft water and a high salt efficiency of 3,000 grains per pound.

Chlorine may be removed at point-of-entry with a backwashing carbon filter system. When carbon is not utilized before the softener, 10% cross-link resin will better tolerate constant chlorine exposure compared to standard 8% (or lower) cross-link resin.
 
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ditttohead

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Municipal water in that area is fairly easy to treat. I know a company very close to you that stocks good equipment at a very reasonable price. I will send you a pm.

In general you only ned the softener. A carbon tank would be nice but since there is not enough room, the softener will do just fine.
 

randomwalk

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Thanks for the PM's and recommendations! I'm starting to speak to some dealers and have a question about the valves.

I'm considering a 1.5 cubic ft. softener with 10% cross linked resin, and a 1.0 cubic ft. backwash catalytic carbon filter. This is the biggest unit that can fit in the space.

One dealer only offers the Fleck 5600SXT, which I know is an older design compared to the 5800SXT. Is this a problem / deal breaker for my usage?

I can't find much info on the differences between the valves, only that 5800 is newer and a DC motor.

For background, the copper pipes coming into the unit is 1" instead of 3/4". Not sure if that makes a difference on the valve selection.
 

randomwalk

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Separately, in order to fit both a softener and a backwash carbon filter inside the water heater closet, the brine tank has to be outside the closet and would be outdoors. Is it a problem to have the brine tank outdoors?
 

Bannerman

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Many softeners, filters and brine tanks are installed outdoors in warmer areas. There are often weather covers available to protect the control valve. but it's generally preferable to build a roof or enclosure to protect the entire installation from UV and rain. Some equipment comes equipped with translucent media tanks that without UV protection, can admit enough sunlight that algae will grow inside the tank.

The general recommendation printed in the Fleck literature for the 5600 is for use up to a 12" softener (2 cuft), and up to a 10" filter (1.5 cuft) whereas the 5800 is suitable for up to 16" diameter tanks. Some will argue the 5600 can be utilized for slightly larger systems, particularly where the incoming water is cold. The 5600's main limitation is its 7 gpm backwash rate, but cold water is denser so less backwash flow rate may be required compared to where the water is relatively warm.

The other issue with the 5600 is it is best suited for up to a 3/4" mainline. You may not notice any flow reduction in practice if using the 5600, but plumbing code specifies the mainline diameter is not to be reduced through the conditioning equipment.
 

Reach4

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Is it a problem to have the brine tank outdoors?
No. Some people put the other tanks outdoors too. Sometimes the tanks are partially buried.

Protect outside tanks etc from UV with a cover or paint.
 

randomwalk

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Thanks, Bannerman! What is the disadvantage of a lower backwash rate? I mean, it backwashs at night so I don't really care if it takes longer. You don't save any water by using a higher backwash rate, right?

The 3/4" mainline restriction seems to be a bigger problem. I guess they don't have 1" versions of the 5600SXT?
 

Bannerman

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The backwash rate requirement is specific to each media and is conditional on the tank diameter. A larger diameter tank will require a higher backwash rate for the same media.

Backwashing is intended to eliminate any debris that enters the tank and to lift, loosen and reclassify the media. In a softener, the loose spaces between the resin beads during the brine cycle, allow the brine to more easily flow between the beads, so it will have greater contact with each bead surface. Most backwash cycles are typically programmed for 10 minutes duration so it's not a matter of time but more the amount of media lift that may be achieved. Higher backwash flow = greater lift potential. With a 1.5 cuft softener and 1 cuft carbon filter, both are well within the capabilities of the 5600.

If a 1" connection kit is available, then reducing your 1" mainline to 3/4" will not occur which is not permitted by code. While the 5600 internal pathways are more in keeping with 3/4", as long as the external connections are not reduced, that will comply with the code.

As you mentioned comparing the 5800, since it supports larger capacities, the 5800 internal pathways will be larger than the 5600 as will the backwash capability. The 5800, 5810 and 5812 are current generation designs whereas the 5600, while still capable, reliable and popular, is a design that is several decades old.

As you mentioned possibly relocating the brine tank outdoors, consideration might then be given to also placing the softner and carbon filter outside, in which case, space would likely not be a concern and larger capacity equipment might be possible.
 

randomwalk

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Thanks, Bannerman! The dealer said the Fleck 5600SXT will be 1" and there won't be any need to reduce the mainline going into the system. So it seems like for my usage, the 5600 is fine.

Realistically, a 1.5 cubic ft. softener (10" x 54") and a 1.0 cubic ft. carbon filter (8" x 44") is the most that I can fit. It's ok to put the brine tank outside the closet because it only needs a small flexible tube. Putting everything outside would be a lot more difficult in terms of plumbing and there wouldn't be enough space even outside because it's located in a weird corner.
 

GauravS

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Hello Randomwalk,
Which system you end up buying? I am in same boat, want to buy new softener system in bay area.
 
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