There is NOT enough jail time for this "tech"

[Sylvan]

Another case came in today a woman was severely l scalded and again I am the expert witness

A low life told her that water heaters are not required if you have a boiler with a coil and he removed the water heater and used the tank less coil to supply hot water

No tempering valve, no anti scald shower body or any protection from excessive hot water

A friend of hers was staying over and took a shower when someone down stairs flushed a toilet with a low flow shower head she never had a chance to get out of the shower

The "tech" had no formal training and this is part of the result

When I took the hot water temperature it was 192.4 DEG F

 

[Sylvan]

The other pictures are to graphic to show

 

[Sponsor]

 

[FullySprinklered]

Boil him for life.

 

[Terry]

Oh My! That is just horrible.

 

[Sylvan]

This case I took for free and told the lawyers give her my share and hopefully the "ted\ch" will face jail time and loses every thing he ever had. There is no excuse for this to have ever happened

 

[JohnCT]

A low life told her that water heaters are not required if you have a boiler with a coil and he removed the water heater and used the tank less coil to supply hot water

My house was built in 1993 with a boiler and coil, and there's no external water heater and no mixing valve. Are you saying a water heater is still required with a coil? The shower valves are Symmons Temptrol (anti-scald). The Symmons Temptrol has two capped adjustments which I assume are a mixing arrangement right at the valve?

The house was built to code at that time and our town has rigorous inspections. Are external mixing valves and/or external heaters required now?

I just bought a new boiler to install along with a mixing valve because I'm going to repipe my house with PEX, and didn't want the temperature that high through the PEX.

John

 

[Sylvan]

I will NOT give any advice where plastic" is used on a potable water supply especially on hot water

John for your information I only use Holby tempering valves (mixing) and although I consider them the best they are NOT Anti scald devices

What makes being an expert witness so profitable is knowing how many unknowing people are out there installing devices they have no idea what they are doing

For example some 12 child installs a shower body and figures she is set to go as it says "anti scald " and a few months later her baby sister is burned while showering

How can this be after all the shower valve stated "anti scald" But the 12 year old did not read the fine print that mentions seasonal changes in water main temperatures and the valves have to be adjusted accordingly

Also is this a hot water boiler or steam as Steam is much hotter at 1 PSI steam temperature is 213 deg F

I never said a tank is required, but by adding storage your just about guaranteed an endless supply of HW

By the way I was called to look at a system installed in Connecticut (Greenwich) the contractor used a vent pipe for the waste, put 3- 100 gallon tank on the 3rd floor with no floor drains and no means of protecting the occupants below if a tank should burst or the T&P discharges

So much for CT rigorous codes because people do crazy things after the inspectors leave

 

[JohnCT]

Also is this a hot water boiler or steam as Steam is much hotter at 1 PSI steam temperature is 213 deg F

It's a regular boiler with a hot water coil.

So much for CT rigorous codes because people do crazy things after the inspectors leave

The inspections are not by state, but by local municipality, and vary. For instance, at the time I built my home, my town required 2x6 exterior wall construction minimum, where the next town over they can use 2x4 framing on attached garages and the city near me still allowed (allows?) 2x4 framing. My town also requires not only sheet rock in the garage, but taped and painted. Next town over, no.

Of course, this all comes down to the inspector involved..

Thanks for the info. I was going to use a Honeywell mixing valve but will check out the Holby.

John

 

[Dana]

Boil him for life.

That would be very short but miserable life at 192.4F.

 

[Sylvan]

She did not die but she does have decades of rehab and scars that will never go away I so far written over 40 pages against the building , the installers etc

 

[Dana]

My house was built in 1993 with a boiler and coil, and there's no external water heater and no mixing valve. Are you saying a water heater is still required with a coil? The shower valves are Symmons Temptrol (anti-scald). The Symmons Temptrol has two capped adjustments which I assume are a mixing arrangement right at the valve?

The house was built to code at that time and our town has rigorous inspections. Are external mixing valves and/or external heaters required now?

I just bought a new boiler to install along with a mixing valve because I'm going to repipe my house with PEX, and didn't want the temperature that high through the PEX.

John

That was legal (but stupid) in 1993. It's been at least a couple of decades since either a tempering valve or thermostatic mixing valve has been required on the output of ANY water heater (not just tankless coils) in Massachusetts to any plumbing that distributes water to sinks & bathing, though untempered water is still allowed for distribution to laundry and dishwashers.

Shower mixers and aquastat settings on water heaters are specifically excluded as alternative methods in current code.

It's still legal to use tankless coils for domestic hot water, but not without a tempering valve or thermostatic mixing valve. The installer is on the hook for setting it to 120F, or lower, but the homeowner can set it to something else, but the liability for after the fact tweaking to higher temps isn't transferred to the installer.

Tankless coils on boilers are a pretty crappy solution for domestic hot water in any event. It requires oversizing the the boiler for the space heating load and a higher idling temperature, both of which have fairly significant impacts on as-used efficiency (in a distinctly negative direction.) In the vast majority of cases installing a boiler right-sized for the space heating load and a indirect fired hot water tank sized for the largest tub that needs filling (with a thermostatic mixing valve on the output of the indirect) is by far better, delivering higher flow rates and overall service on the domestic hot water, and higher efficiency on the system as a whole.

 

[Sylvan]

"The installer is on the hook for setting it to 120 F, or lower"

Last year I testified in court the non licensed installer set the water heater to low and he was directly responsible for the inhabitants to get sick as you need at least 140 Deg F to kill bacteria that would otherwise use the tank as incubator

Also setting the aquastat to 120 deg is not going to stop anyone from being scalded because of "stacking" which is as follows

Hot water rises cold water is dense like waking into the ocean or swimming pool so the hottest water is far,far away above the aquastat probe

It is actually higher than the T&P in most cases so the T&P cannot actually sense as the uppermost temperature can be over 15-20 deg higher

Also as the tank gets older mineral deposits act as an insulator so the actual water temperature reading is higher then the SET temperature

Ideally the water from a tank would be over 140 deg F to burn off chlorine and bacteria inside the tank and a direct line of hot water would be piped to the dishwasher and washing machine and a tempering valve set to 120 Deg and ani scald devices are installed point of use such as a tub or shower 120 Deg Max and a bidet 110 Max

For my commercial accounts we need 160 -180 Deg F in lieu of chemicals for sterilization and temperting the water for the other fixtures

Because no one code fits all applications this is why most plumbers are aware of the white pages, AGA, ASME, NFPA and local and state and federal codes plus a few more the local guys decide to throw in

This burn case to less then 15 minutes to look at and over 3 hours writing reports which sections of the code and which code was violated besides generally accepted plumbing practices 27" heat sink for example by the water heater or the tempering valve

 

[Dana]

Setting the

"The installer is on the hook for setting it to 120 F, or lower"

Last year I testified in court the non licensed installer set the water heater to low and he was directly responsible for the inhabitants to get sick as you need at least 140 Deg F to kill bacteria that would otherwise use the tank as incubator

Also setting the aquastat to 120 deg is not going to stop anyone from being scalded because of "stacking" which is as follows

Hot water rises cold water is dense like waking into the ocean or swimming pool so the hottest water is far,far away above the aquastat probe

It is actually higher than the T&P in most cases so the T&P cannot actually sense as the uppermost temperature can be over 15-20 deg higher

Also as the tank gets older mineral deposits act as an insulator so the actual water temperature reading is higher then the SET temperature

Ideally the water from a tank would be over 140 deg F to burn off chlorine and bacteria inside the tank and a direct line of hot water would be piped to the dishwasher and washing machine and a tempering valve set to 120 Deg and ani scald devices are installed point of use such as a tub or shower 120 Deg Max and a bidet 110 Max

For my commercial accounts we need 160 -180 Deg F in lieu of chemicals for sterilization and temperting the water for the other fixtures

Because no one code fits all applications this is why most plumbers are aware of the white pages, AGA, ASME, NFPA and local and state and federal codes plus a few more the local guys decide to throw in

This burn case to less then 15 minutes to look at and over 3 hours writing reports which sections of the code and which code was violated besides generally accepted plumbing practices 27" heat sink for example by the water heater or the tempering valve

That's completely misconstruing my statement, barking up the wrong tree.

To clarify:

An installer setting the tempering valve to 140F or higher would be violating the code- 120F is the upper limit.

An installer setting the tank to less 140F would also be violating the code- that's the lower limit.

 

[Sylvan]

https://www.phcppros.com/articles/1828-hot-water-system-temperatures-and-the-code