Sump Pump Check Valve Problem

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Kubstix

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So I just completed a pretty large project in my house which included adding a sump pump. I had everything temporarily piped with Fernco's because I had some other things needed to be done but wanted to start pumping. Yesterday I decided to pull the pump to pipe everything up one final time and actually screw down the lid, ect ect ect. I drilled a 5/32 vent hole about a 1/2 inch above the pump on a 45 degree angle pointing downwards. However, now I can hear the vacuumed air escaping through the weep hole when the pump shuts off and it sounds like someone is taking furniture and dragging it across tile floor when it shuts down. Normally this isn't a huge deal, but I have bedrooms above and I need to fix this or change it. I'm going to grab a new piece of 1 1/2 pipe and a adapter to connect to the pump. Should I not drill a weep hole, or maybe drill it lower instead towards the bottom? Zoeller BN53 here with a Zoeller Quiet Check Valve. Thank You.
 

Kubstix

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So now I listened closely and watched after work today.....it's the quiet check valve. What is happening is the water below the check valve is falling down and with that hole is like causing a contained vacuum and pushing air up and I can see the check valve fluttering being it's clear until it closes back up. So that is the noise I'm hearing. I also feel like the action of turning on was much quieter without the vent hole. Now it seems like I am hearing a louder thud when it kicks on and dumps the air out of the vent hole. I mean I don't want to sacrifice the vent hole if it's truly needed, but this guy in general was alot quieter without the darn thing.
 

Cacher_Chick

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The only noise is normally a bit of water spray when the pump runs, and maybe a quick drainback when the pump turns off. I use A.Y. McDonald silent check valves and always drill the hole straight into the pipe.
 

Kubstix

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The only noise is normally a bit of water spray when the pump runs, and maybe a quick drainback when the pump turns off. I use A.Y. McDonald silent check valves and always drill the hole straight into the pipe.

How far do you drill up the pipe and is the hole submerged underwater at any time during cycle? I'm not sure if it's because this darn thing is on a 45 degree angled drill. Maybe I should have drilled straight instead. I see alot of people drilling them low towards the bottom and staying submerged. It's one or the other I guess.
 

Reach4

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https://www.zoellerpumps.com/content/literature/ZT0044_Ec.pdf says
3. Vent hole purpose. It is advisable that all submersible sump pumps be of the bottom intake design to reduce clogging and seal failures. If a check valve is incorporated in the installation, a vent hole (approx. 3/16") must be drilled in the discharge pipe below the check valve and pit cover to purge the bottom intake unit of trapped air. Trapped air is caused by agitation and/or a dry basin. This vent hole should be checked periodically for clogging. Water stream will be visible from this hole during pump run periods.​

I interpret this to say that the hole could be below the max water level. The purpose is for if the pump sucks air because it pumped so low, the air has an escape. If you never pump that low, you should not need a hole, if I understand correctly.
 

Kubstix

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https://www.zoellerpumps.com/content/literature/ZT0044_Ec.pdf says
3. Vent hole purpose. It is advisable that all submersible sump pumps be of the bottom intake design to reduce clogging and seal failures. If a check valve is incorporated in the installation, a vent hole (approx. 3/16") must be drilled in the discharge pipe below the check valve and pit cover to purge the bottom intake unit of trapped air. Trapped air is caused by agitation and/or a dry basin. This vent hole should be checked periodically for clogging. Water stream will be visible from this hole during pump run periods.​

I interpret this to say that the hole could be below the max water level. The purpose is for if the pump sucks air because it pumped so low, the air has an escape. If you never pump that low, you should not need a hole, if I understand correctly.

So should I maybe try the 3/16 straight drill below max water level? I do pump low, but entire bottom of pump is still submerged, I don't empty the entire basin.
 

Reach4

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So should I maybe try the 3/16 straight drill below max water level? I do pump low, but entire bottom of pump is still submerged, I don't empty the entire basin.
I doubt that making the hole bigger would help you. The advice above was to use a better check valve. That is probably the more sure solution.

If the bottom couple inches of the pump is never out of water, I think you could plug your existing hole with a screw. I am not a plumber.
 

Kubstix

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I doubt that making the hole bigger would help you. The advice above was to use a better check valve. That is probably the more sure solution.

If the bottom couple inches of the pump is never out of water, I think you could plug your existing hole with a screw. I am not a plumber.

I took a video. I think no matter what valve is going to do the same thing. Or maybe do others have a more stiffer spring so when that air rises it won't be enough to push a different one open?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12k80OV6hMUv2_8-QIrzWcqxD-HVsfjNd/view?usp=sharing
 

hj

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It has NOTHING to do with "air rising". When the water drains back it is causing the check valve to "bounce" open and closed in a diminishing pattern until there is not enough water to continue it. The vent hole also should have nothing to do with it.
 

Kubstix

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It has NOTHING to do with "air rising". When the water drains back it is causing the check valve to "bounce" open and closed in a diminishing pattern until there is not enough water to continue it. The vent hole also should have nothing to do with it.
I see what you are saying, makes sense. OK, just ordered the AY McDonald. Hopefully this takes care of it, I didn't know the Zoeller Quiet Check wasn't a good one. I based it off online reviews but I guess it's not for everyone. Thanks for the help everyone.
 
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Kubstix

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It has NOTHING to do with "air rising". When the water drains back it is causing the check valve to "bounce" open and closed in a diminishing pattern until there is not enough water to continue it. The vent hole also should have nothing to do with it.

Installed my new AYM today after work, almost same issue. This one is a bit quieter on the flutter, but does the same exact thing. This one I can watch the valve being forced open with air instead. Nothing remains behind after a cycle in the check valve and I'm not even sure the 8 inches of weight of water above it can hold it closed when it flutters being this guy isn't spring loaded like the other. Do I really need a check valve? My entire run is probably 3 and a half feet vertical counting 24 inches inside basin, and 8 inches above the check valve give or take. I really don't understand the need for this? Is it my understanding the only purpose it serves is the water that is running/pumping vertically does not enter back in the pit? In my situation we are talking a very minimal amount of water. When I didn't have a check valve and had everything temporary piped with ferncos, an entire cycle was definitely much quieter. No sound and only heard a tiny bit of vibration upstairs. The AY McDonald also does not hammer on the cycle start like the spring loaded which is also a plus I guess too.
 
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Cacher_Chick

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It might be good if we had a better understanding of your installation. I have replaced a lot of sump pumps, and assumed you were working in a basement. I pipe the discharge straight up from the pump to the overhead space between the floor joists, so there is normally 6-9 feet of head over the check valve.
 

Jadnashua

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It might depend somewhat on the slope of the line after it reaches the high point and how long it is. You don't want all of the water to end up draining back into the sump so you have to pump it out again which is what the check valve is supposed to do.

If the outlet pipe vertical, or at an angle? If it's angled somewhat, could you rotate it around 180 so the flap is still pointed the right direction, but is now relying on the flapper to set slightly differently. the direction can't be changed, but if there's a slope, maybe the rotations position might make a difference.

If there's only a few inches above that valve before it turns horizontal, there will be almost no weight on the valve seal by the column of water. The higher the water column, the greater the pressure on the valve which will make it seal better. Could you lower the valve any to get more weight on it?

How about posting a picture of what you have.
 

Treeman

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If there's only a few inches above that valve before it turns horizontal, there will be almost no weight on the valve seal by the column of water. The higher the water column, the greater the pressure on the valve which will make it seal better. Could you lower the valve any to get more weight on it?

This!!!! He said his discharge pipe only extends 8 inches above the check valve, then turns horizontal. I bet he does not have enough weight (from water) to keep the check valve closed. As water drains out of the vent hole, the air bubbles float up and escape. Most of us have 6 to 8 feet of water we don't want to drain back into the sump at shutoff, thus the need for a check valve.

With his outlet so low, does he even need a check valve? Can a check valve be mounted below the sump cover? With so little water weight (head) above the sump, would a regular check valve work better? He should have little hammering from such a small amount of water in the pipe above the pit.
 
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Kubstix

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This!!!! He said his discharge pipe only extends 8 inches above the check valve, then turns horizontal. I bet he does not have enough weight (from water) to keep the check valve closed. As water drains out of the vent hole, the air bubbles float up and escape. Most of us have 6 to 8 feet of water we don't want to drain back into the sump at shutoff, thus the need for a check valve.

With his outlet so low, does he even need a check valve? Can a check valve be mounted below the sump cover? With so little water weight (head) above the sump, would a regular check valve work better? He should have little hammering from such a small amount of water in the pipe above the pit.

This is exactly what my problem is as you explain the air bubbles, ect. This is in my garage and not a basement so including the 24 inches inside the basin, I am literally only pumping 36-48 inches vertical than it just takes a 90 degree through the block and goes down and out. I have only 8 inches of water if that above my check valve. Being this one is not spring loaded it definitely is not heavy enough to keep this valve closed. I see no reason I need a check valve if it's only purpose is to not let water in the pipe enter back into the basin. We are talking 8-12 oz of water entering back in here. Thank you.
 
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Kubstix

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It might depend somewhat on the slope of the line after it reaches the high point and how long it is. You don't want all of the water to end up draining back into the sump so you have to pump it out again which is what the check valve is supposed to do.

If the outlet pipe vertical, or at an angle? If it's angled somewhat, could you rotate it around 180 so the flap is still pointed the right direction, but is now relying on the flapper to set slightly differently. the direction can't be changed, but if there's a slope, maybe the rotations position might make a difference.

If there's only a few inches above that valve before it turns horizontal, there will be almost no weight on the valve seal by the column of water. The higher the water column, the greater the pressure on the valve which will make it seal better. Could you lower the valve any to get more weight on it?

How about posting a picture of what you have.

It might be good if we had a better understanding of your installation. I have replaced a lot of sump pumps, and assumed you were working in a basement. I pipe the discharge straight up from the pump to the overhead space between the floor joists, so there is normally 6-9 feet of head over the check valve.

It basically goes through the block and takes another 90 straight down and another 90 at the bottom end to dump. This is in my garage.
 

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Reach4

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My entire run is probably 3 and a half feet vertical counting 24 inches inside basin, and 8 inches above the check valve give or take.
What is the altitude of the exit from the pipe at the far end compared to other parts of the system?
 

Kubstix

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What is the altitude of the exit from the pipe at the far end compared to other parts of the system?

Here is a diagram of what the piping does. I'm not sure I understand what your question is. The length of the pump connection on pump to the 90 degree elbow where it travels through the block is 42 inches high (this includes the 24 inch depth of the basin). Goes straight out the block and connects to another 90 elbow on the other side in which connects a 20 inch pipe straight down to another 90 degree at the bottom of ground level which in turn connects a 3 foot pipe to make it past my mulch bed into the grass.


*****We punched out a 1 3/4 hole through the block so we can slightly pitch this pipe forward so no standing water can sit inside the pipe between the block. So in conclusion, I have only 8 inches of water above this check valve that would realistically be filled with water. We did this just in case we have -10, -20 degree days/nights. Problem is, with the fluttering in the Zoeller Quiet Valve, it reduces this water level above the valve to maybe only 4 inches of water. The AY McDonald, does not have any water above the valve because the flutter empties back down anyways.


If I absolutely have to have a check valve, can I install one of these instead at pump level?
https://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/Zoeller-30-0238/p65022.html
30-0238_65022_150.jpg
 

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WorthFlorida

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You have a siphon effect going on.

If your discharge pipe is looped back down to the ground as shown and as you stated, it's a siphon effect that is pulling in the air. The pump shuts off but the siphon is still drawing water from the sump until the siphon is broken. Either it gets down to the bottom of the pit and gets air or that hole you drilled pulls in the air. The discharge pipe on the outside should just be cut straight out and just slightly pitched. Notice when you flush your toilet you get the gurgle at the end. It's pulling in air from the atmospheric pressure. Same thing is happening here.

I would take out the check valve if the sump just dump the water onto the ground. The check valve will leave water at the very top of the pipe where the winter cold could freeze the water in the pipe. An open end pipe could allow fridge cold air into the pipe. Since this is a garage I suspect no heat in the winter. A check valve would be needed if you had a seal sump dumping water into a septic system.
 

Treeman

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I'm guessing that Reach4 wants to confirm that the horizontal portion slopes down towards the outdoors to keep that water from draining back into the sump. EDIT: Excellent advice about the siphon effect WorthFlorida!

I have seen internet installations with the check valve attached directly to the pump outlet and some installed below the pit cover (still with a vent hole). It seems most install the check valve just above the cover for easier access and maintenance.

I see some installations with the check valve 4 to 5 feet above pump. This reduces a bit of head pressure above the valve, but allows more water to drain back to the sump (compromises). If this is acceptable, it begs the question of whether you even need any check valve, because your layout does not allow that much water to drain back to the pit (results in extra pump cycling, shorter life, etc.).

YOU NEED A PRO'S OPINION OF ELIMINATING A CHECK VALVE IN YOUR SITUATION.

OR, YOU NEED TO KNOW IF MOUNTING THE CHECK VALVE LOWER WILL ELIMINATE YOUR CURRENT PROBLEM.

Forgive the "shouting" above. Also, be mindful of the possible freezing and/or rodents getting into your existing layout and plugging it.
 
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