Well Pump and Tank setup

[Rob Krenik]

I'm having a well dug this week in the pacific NW and expect to hit water around 75-125'. I was thinking of using a 1 HP submersible pump at 20 gal/min flow. The max pressure out of the pump is 50psi and the outlet diameter is 1 1/4". I have dug a 36" trench from the well to my home 700' away (flat-horizontally). I plan to install 1 1/4" poly pipe the entire distance. I plan to install a 44 gal tank & pressure switch (40/60) at the home. The bladder tank pressure is preset at 38psi, and is adjustable. There is no power at the well. I plan to run buried cable wires in the trench from the temp power/pressure switch (at the home) back to the pump control box (230V/9.3A) (6-2 buried cable) allowing for 3% voltage loss over the 700'. Before buying all the components i just wanted to make sure the tank/PS should be located near the home? And do you think i'll need a circulating pump at 350' to help with the flow to the tank (because of the 20psi drop between the pump and the tank) (50psi - 20psi (loss) = 30psi into the tank)?
Thank you for your responses.
Rob

 

[Reach4]

I'm having a well dug this week in the pacific NW and expect to hit water around 75-125'. I was thinking of using a 1 HP submersible pump at 20 gal/min flow.

You should know where your water is and the well capability before selecting a pump. Also, where did you come up with 20 gpm? Irrigation or fire sprinklers?

Before buying all the components i just wanted to make sure the tank/PS should be located near the home? And do you think i'll need a circulating pump at 350' to help with the flow to the tank (because of the 20psi drop between the pump and the tank) (50psi - 20psi (loss) = 30psi into the tank)?

I don't know what you mean by a circulating pump, but you don't need one. Maybe you mean booster pump.

44 gallon tank is undersized for 20 gpm. You want at least 4x the gpm number, unless you use a CSV.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

With 700' of 1 1/4" poly pipe you will only have 18-20 PSI of loss WHEN you are using 20 GPM. At any lower flow rate there will be very little friction loss in that pipe and if you feed it 50 PSI at the pump/tank you will get close to 50 at the other end.

With a 1HP, #8 wire is good to 990'. But you will want 3 or 4 conductors, not just 2. If you have a 2 wire motor, you will need 3 wires as one of them is a ground. If you use a 3 wire motor with a control box, you will need 4 conductors from the control box to the pump/motor, as the fourth wire is a ground.

And a 44 gallon tank only holds about 10 gallons of water, so the pump will cycle on/off for every 10 gallons used. If you use a CSV a 4.5 or 10 gallon size tank is plenty, as the Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) keeps the pump from cycling like the old pressure tank only systems do.

 

[LLigetfa]

if you feed it 50 PSI at the pump

If it is 50 PSI at the pump, factoring .43 PSI per foot of elevation would not net you 50 PSI at the tank.

 

[Rob Krenik]

You should know where your water is and the well capability before selecting a pump. Also, where did you come up with 20 gpm? Irrigation or fire sprinklers?


I don't know what you mean by a circulating pump, but you don't need one. Maybe you mean booster pump.

44 gallon tank is undersized for 20 gpm. You want at least 4x the gpm number, unless you use a CSV.

The pump i'm looking at is:
1 HP Submersible 3-Wire Motor 20 GPM Deep Well Potable Water Pump by Everbilt.

I talked with another plumber and he said don't put the tank/s at the house, put them at the well and use 2 tanks. One for the control of the pump and one to boost psi. (one 44 gal tank with the pressure switch (40/60) in series that feeds the 2nd tank (44 gal with a working psi of 80psi). that way i won't wear out the pump and i will still have plenty of pressure at the house. Do you concur?

 

[Rob Krenik]

The pump i'm looking at is:
1 HP Submersible 3-Wire Motor 20 GPM Deep Well Potable Water Pump by Everbilt.

I talked with another plumber and he said don't put the tank/s at the house, put them at the well and use 2 tanks. One for the control of the pump and one to boost psi. (one 44 gal tank with the pressure switch (40/60) in series that feeds the 2nd tank (44 gal with a working psi of 80psi). that way i won't wear out the pump and i will still have plenty of pressure at the house. Do you concur?
Oh, i forgot to say, we have a 5 bdrm house (6 people), and a shop.

 

[Reach4]

talked with another plumber and he said don't put the tank/s at the house, put them at the well and use 2 tanks. One for the control of the pump and one to boost psi. (one 44 gal tank with the pressure switch (40/60) in series that feeds the 2nd tank (44 gal with a working psi of 80psi). that way i won't wear out the pump and i will still have plenty of pressure at the house. Do you concur?

Series , parallel... depends how you look at it.... I would call that parallel, but I am sure we are thinking teeing off to the other tank. Yes, you could use 2x 44 gallon tanks instead of an 86 gallon tank such as the Well-X-Trol WX-302 .

The tank(s) go with the pressure switch, and you can do either. Having the pressure switch at the house will have a little better pressure regulation because the effect of pressure drop due to flow to the house will be cancelled out. But if you are going to set up a subpanel at the well house anyway, putting the tank at the well house works too. Having the pressure tanks at the lower pressure end will give slightly more drawdown with the tanks.

On the other hand, space in the house may be more valuable than space in the well house.

Still, know your well before selecting a tank.

10 gpm pump is a better size for most houses, but your situation may be different.

 

[Valveman]

The pump i'm looking at is:
1 HP Submersible 3-Wire Motor 20 GPM Deep Well Potable Water Pump by Everbilt.

I talked with another plumber and he said don't put the tank/s at the house, put them at the well and use 2 tanks. One for the control of the pump and one to boost psi. (one 44 gal tank with the pressure switch (40/60) in series that feeds the 2nd tank (44 gal with a working psi of 80psi). that way i won't wear out the pump and i will still have plenty of pressure at the house. Do you concur?

From 75'-100' the 1HP, 20 GPM pump will work, but the rest of that is bull. If you have a 40/60 pressure switch you will only have between 40 and 60 no matter how many or how few tanks you have. The pump makes the pressure, not the tank(s). The 40/60 switch shuts the pump off at 60, so 60 is the most you will see. Pressure doesn't just magically jump from 40/60 to 80 from one tank to another.

Now a 44 gallon tank only holds about 10 gallons of water, so you do need two of them to make a 20 GPM pump run for a minimum of 1 minute as required. The pressure in the house will go up and down from 40 to 60, 60 to 40, on and on, for every 20 gallons you use.

I know it is going to blow your plumbers mind, but the 4.5 or 10 gallon size pressure tank with a CSV will give you much stronger pressure than the old 40/60 pressure tank only method. Like I said the pressure and water come from the pump, not the tank. So when you have a little tank and a CSV, the pump comes on and gives you as much pressure as you need (like 80 PSI constant) for as long as you need it, even if you are in the shower for a month. Then when you are not using any water the CSV slowly fills the little tank and the pump shuts off. The CSV gives you 80 PSI constant, if that is what you want, no matter how much or how little water you are using. The water is going right past the tank, straight to the shower. It doesn't matter the size of the tank.

Most houses run the CSV at 50 PSI constant using a 40/60 pressure switch with a small tank. But as long as your pump will build the pressure, you can set it as high as you want. I set one recently for constant 140 with a 130/150 pressure switch for a house on top of a 200' tall hill. So you can have as much pressure as you want, but a tank is not going to give it to you.

 

[Rob Krenik]

Thanks for the replies. not sure yet about CSV, but thinking about it. Here are my calculations. It seems like having the tank/s at the house makes more sense than at the well. Am I right?

1. Tanks/Pressure switch at the House. 50psi pump, 1 1/4 poly tube pipe traveling 700' horizontal from the well to the house. (according to the Hunter friction loss charts for poly tube- 2.59psi is lost every 100', equals a total loss 18psi at the house at 700'). Means 50psi-18psi =31psi going into the tank (86 gal) when the pump is running. Pressure builds to 60psi and shuts off. Psi at the house is between 40-60psi.

2. Tank/Pressure Switch at the Well. 50psi going out of the pump into the 86 gal tank. Pressure switch controls between 40-60psi out. Loss over 700' is 18psi. Pressure at the house is 22-42psi.

 

[Valveman]

Then set the pressure switch at 60/80 at the well, and you will have 40/60 at the house. Just want the pressure switch where ever the power comes from. If there is a meter at the well, no sense in running wire 700' to a pressure switch and back, just put the tank at the well.

However, with all friction loss in that 18 PSI, the only time you will see it is when you are using maximum flow. At low flows there will be little or no friction loss and you will have 60/80 at the house. This can be a good reason for having the tank at the house, but usually not worth 700' of wire. But if the power comes from the house and you have to run 700' of wire anyway, by all means put the tank at the house.

Really six of one or a half dozen of the other anyway you look at it.

 

[Ballvalve]

The pump i'm looking at is:
1 HP Submersible 3-Wire Motor 20 GPM Deep Well Potable Water Pump by Everbilt.

I talked with another plumber and he said don't put the tank/s at the house, put them at the well and use 2 tanks. One for the control of the pump and one to boost psi. (one 44 gal tank with the pressure switch (40/60) in series that feeds the 2nd tank (44 gal with a working psi of 80psi). that way i won't wear out the pump and i will still have plenty of pressure at the house. Do you concur?

NEVER, EVER ask a plumber about your well. First rule of well piping and wiring. What you need is a guy that understands electricity, piping, ohmmeters, ammeters, pressure tanks, VERTICAL piping in a hole, underwater wire connections, head and psi calculations, and how to read a pump curve. Now that means a plumber or Homer Simpson would be just as useful to you. So you need a well and pump specialist that isn't in foreclosure on his house or putting a kid through Harvard. Then there is the problem that about 75% of the well guys under the age of 60 are also fairly clueless until proven smart and ethical. It's easier to find a good priest.

I can't begin to tell you the fantasy world so many plumbers live in when asked about wells. [Apologies to you GOOD technically savvy plumbers out there] You are in a good spot here, but only take advice from old pro's, half retired. Those are the guys that forget to bill you for several months, or never do. My friend had one well pro ass-hole stand at his door until he got the check for $10,000 for what I call $3000 of work. But hey! It says on the door of his truck that he is a licensed genius. License to steal for him.

 

[Ballvalve]

Like valveman said, power at well put the pump and tank or csv there. Power at the house, put the tank and switches there. Everyone is so afraid of pressure over 60 pounds. Set your switch at 70 to 90 or even more. Pumps love to work under pressure, that's their thing. I built a water system for my subdivision and the static pressure at the well head is 165 PSI. No pressure tank, I just pump uphill to a 3000 gallon tank. Guys down low don't need boosters, guys up top do. 1-1/2 PVC is rated to at least 400 working psi last I looked. 200 PSI poly wont burst until 400 or more psi. And don't allow any plumbers near the well, keep them in the house.

 

[Valveman]

NEVER, EVER ask a plumber about your well. First rule of well piping and wiring. What you need is a guy that understands electricity, piping, ohmmeters, ammeters, pressure tanks, VERTICAL piping in a hole, underwater wire connections, head and psi calculations, and how to read a pump curve. Now that means a plumber or Homer Simpson would be just as useful to you. So you need a well and pump specialist that isn't in foreclosure on his house or putting a kid through Harvard. Then there is the problem that about 75% of the well guys under the age of 60 are also fairly clueless until proven smart and ethical. It's easier to find a good priest.

I can't begin to tell you the fantasy world so many plumbers live in when asked about wells. [Apologies to you GOOD technically savvy plumbers out there] You are in a good spot here, but only take advice from old pro's, half retired. Those are the guys that forget to bill you for several months, or never do. My friend had one well pro ass-hole stand at his door until he got the check for $10,000 for what I call $3000 of work. But hey! It says on the door of his truck that he is a licensed genius. License to steal for him.

LOL! But you are right about most of that. A good pump man has to wear many hats. Most of them can't, but think they can. They give all pump guys a bad reputation. Many of them do use it as a license to steal. That is why I recommend everyone educate themselves about pumps, as many times it doesn't take much to know more than the pump man you hired.

However, on the east coast there are a lot of plumbers who know more about pumps than the local pump guys.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Tuesday, I got a call. No water on about 6 rentals. He said he had a guy come out and replace the pressure switch and check the control box, Pump wouldn’t run. Wanted a new 3 hp pump. Went and looked. Had a standard control box. Hd pressure switch had been replaced with standard FSG4 switch, rated for 2 hp max. No power out of control box to pump. Megged Pump. Tested good. 2 80 gallon pressure tanks no pressure in one, water cane out of shrewder vs,be on the other. Flotec tanks were bad. There another control box on to test. Pump runs 30 seconds pressure switch opens, takes 30 seconds for pressure to drop and cycle to repeat. Came back next day. Installed 2 new 80 gallon pressure tanks and plumbing. Installed deluxe control box with contractor, so that standard pressure switch was adequate.

Now we’ll see how much like the Pump still has in it after all the short cycling.

 

[Boycedrilling]

The point of my story? I don’t trust anybody else’s diagnosis. Not the home owner, his electrician, plumber, or handyman. Yeah, I could have just gone ahead and replaced his pump. But would have I solved the problem? No. His problem was waterlogged tanks. Most people do not understand that most control box problems or blown capacitors are symptoms of a different problem; a bad pressure tank. Replacing a blown capacitor is a short term bandaid, not a solution.

 

[Valveman]

You did good because most people would have replaced the pump before figuring out the tanks were the real problem. But replacing those two 80 gallon tanks may also just be a bandaid. If the first two already have broken bladders the next two will do the same. I know flotec is not the best tank, but it is still the cycling on and off that broke the bladder, that caused the waterlogged tank, and caused the blown capacitor, that finally shut off the water, which started the need for a diagnosis to begin with. A 3HP pump can cycle a lot even with two 80 gallon tanks. Just saying.

 

[Boycedrilling]

I agree. If I was designing this system new, it would have a 1 1/2” cycle stop in in the pimp house. It would be difficult to retrofit one into this system. It’s just got a dead end stub up into the Pump house for the pressure tanks.

Not to mention the bed in there. It’s being rented out

 

[Boycedrilling]

Unlike this pump house with two 2500 gallon reservoirs. Notice the CSV off the centrifugal Pump. The reservoirs are filled by a 5 hp 10 gpm Pump set 900 ft deep. The well has a 725 foot static.

 

[Rob Krenik]

Then set the pressure switch at 60/80 at the well, and you will have 40/60 at the house. Just want the pressure switch where ever the power comes from. If there is a meter at the well, no sense in running wire 700' to a pressure switch and back, just put the tank at the well.

However, with all friction loss in that 18 PSI, the only time you will see it is when you are using maximum flow. At low flows there will be little or no friction loss and you will have 60/80 at the house. This can be a good reason for having the tank at the house, but usually not worth 700' of wire. But if the power comes from the house and you have to run 700' of wire anyway, by all means put the tank at the house.

Really six of one or a half dozen of the other anyway you look at it.

Ok thanks. Yes the power is at the house. the power company would not put a separate meter at the well. i'll have to run power to the pump, 700' to the control box at the well.

 

[LLigetfa]

Loss over 700' is 18psi.

18 GPM at what GPM and at what PSI? The loss would not be static but rather depend on the PSI and GPM flowing at the time. Put the tank and CSV at the house so that the 700 foot run will have the higher pressure before the CSV and there won't be a noticeable 18 PSI drop.