Need a verdict on where to go next on pump tripping overload

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2devnull

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All, per the advise of Reach4, I have created this new thread instead of piggy-backing on an older thread. I have capture the previous discussions below. Would really like to know what my next move should be. I do appreciate this groups kind assistance.

Members....I have two questions. First, I need to know if to replace my pump. Second, if I do, what is the best option for a 2 HP pump?

I currently have a 2 HP submersible pump (control box is Franklin, not sure what pump/motor is down there) that has been going strong for 12 years. Due to what I believe was a waterlogged tank, it started to behave erratically. I changed it out with a CSV and the small tank and it ran for about a month. Now it is tripping the run side thermal overload about 5 seconds after resetting. I ohm out the wires to the pump and check each to ground and it appears to still be good. I also replaced both capacitors and relay in the control box. Since the run side (black wire) is pulling about 40 amps, I read that it may be a low-voltage situation but it appears the voltages from the lead in wires are correct (around 100-110 VAC each).
For the heck of it, I would also measure the current in the yellow wire. It is probably 40 amps also, but it seems worth checking. A ground fault could cause a high current in one wire. It is possible, but not really likely, that a ground fault only shows at high voltage and not at the low voltage of a regular ohmmeter.

What ohms do you see for these?
yellow-black:
yellow-red:
red-black:

When measuring the voltage, measure both sides of the pressure switch and get a single reading of maybe 230 volts. Adding together is OK and should give the same answer in most cases.

One thing... are both wires 100-110 VAC, or is one 100 and the other is 110? That latter one would maybe indicate a ground fault.

I presume water is being produced during those 5 seconds, since you did not say.
Check for 230-240 between L1 and L2. Sometimes checking each for 115 doesn't work.
Hi...thanks for this. I will check the ohms in the morning. No, in the 5-seconds no water is coming.
You need to check for 240 volts. If you have 240 then check the amps, because it is the overload in the motor that is tripping.
These are the numbers I measured:

yellow-black: 2.6
yellow-red: 7.0
red-black: 9.2

When measuring the voltage, measure both sides of the pressure switch and get a single reading of maybe 230 volts. Adding together is OK and should give the same answer in most cases. - 253 volts

One thing... are both wires 100-110 VAC, or is one 100 and the other is 110? That latter one would maybe indicate a ground fault. - They both appear to be the same

I presume water is being produced during those 5 seconds, since you did not say. - No water
That is consistent with
  • each wire to the pump having a resistance of 0.2 ohms.
  • the run winding having a resistance of 2.2 ohms
  • the start winding having a resistance of 6.6 ohms.
That is in the range of what you might expect with a 2 HP 3-wire motor.

I would try a whole new control box. I understand that you have replaced most of the components of the control box, but considering the cost of a new pump replacement, it seems worth trying the control box.

It could be that the pump is locked up for some reason, such as something jammed. In that case, a new control box would not help. I could envision a method that would try to make the motor run backwards to maybe un-seize the motor.
Yes, but the boxes are not cheap either - seems to be about half the cost of the pump....lol. But I hear ya, I don't know what else to do. By all indications the pump seems good.

However, I notice in the AIM manual that there was a column for "Locked Rotor Amps". Not sure if that means what it appears on the surface and how to unlock?

BTW - When you suggest a whole new control box, what part are you assuming is the issue with the current box?
Locked rotor amps is about what you would expect the current to be if the rotor was locked, and not a mode you go into on purpose. The initial current would be about that, but the amps drop as the motor gains RPM. Click Inbox.

I don't know. Seems like there is not much else. See what the current is on the red line during the first couple of seconds. I would expect roughly 10 amps. If you measured close to zero, you would have something to troubleshoot.
All wires seem to be pulling around 40 amps including the two line wires coming in.
You should not be able to get 40 amps thru the start capacitor, and therefore not thru the red wire. Presuming the start capacitor is about 120 uF, the impedance (Xc) will be around 20 ohms. The inductance of the start winding would be fairly small, so the resistance of the wires and start winding make the impedance higher than for the capacitor alone. Yes, the tolerance on the capacitor is fairly high on the start capacitor, but you would still not be getting 40 amps thru that path.
I will double check it tomorrow. When it first failed, the start capacitor blew up (the inside stuff paper and black goo came out). I put a new capacitor in and it worked for a while until now.
How many uF (MFD) is that start cap?

You can get cheap digital multimeters that can measure capacitance to 200 uF. You can also use an ohmmeter to do a rough check on a start capacitor.
If it ohms out correctly I would never pull the pump until I checked voltage and put on a new control box.
All, sorry for not replying earlier. Tried to put my head in the sand and not deal with this, however it is something that now has to get done. I have taken the readings for each wire draw:

Black: 42
Yellow: 46
Red: 12.62
I think these numbers tend to support the idea that the starting box is not the problem. Clearly the capacitor is generating a significant phase shift during start, as it should. Was the original problem no water, or breaker blowing? In either case, I suspect the pump.

2devnull, discussion of your problems should have been on its own thread. If you want to start a thread, click the name of the forum that you want to post into. On the right, click on "Post New Thread". If you want to continue with this on a new thread, copy the relevant info into the new thread.
ok, thanks..I'll do that.
 

Valveman

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A 2HP motor has max amps of about 12. Check the voltage. If you have good 230-240 volts with 40+ amps either the start box is not good or the pump/motor is locked up.
 

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How much water gets pumped up in the 5 seconds before the overload shuts down the pump?
 

2devnull

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A 2HP motor has max amps of about 12. Check the voltage. If you have good 230-240 volts with 40+ amps either the start box is not good or the pump/motor is locked up.
The voltage is 253. It's basically a new box since both caps and relay were replaced (unless the overload themselves are bad)

How much water gets pumped up in the 5 seconds before the overload shuts down the pump?
No water. I have a tap about 2 ft from where the pipe comes out the well and nothing is coming out.

Could the check valve before the tap be jammed?
 

2devnull

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A jammed check valve would cause low amperage, not high. I am afraid it is your pump/motor.
This is unfortunate after working so well before. I believe I have a Franklin motor (due to the control box being Franklin). I have been advised to go with a A.Y. McDonald 24000 series pump. Is this the right advise?
 

2devnull

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Spoke to Franklin, they said I can reserve the motor by swapping the red and black wire and running for 5 sec at a time with a one minute break in-between. After three tries, if it didn't help then its locked up even though it has reached the rotor lock amperage as yet (53). I'll give this a go I guess.
 

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The AY McDonald is probably as good as any. If you hire it done you usually get whatever brand your installer sells. I doubt that you pump is locked up with sand or debris. Most likely a locked up pump is from a bad thrust bearing or the stator just swells from heat and grabs the rotor.
 

2devnull

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Somewhat good news....found out the pump is only at 63 feet from the well completion report. Not sure what type of pipe was used, but trying to find the best way to rig up something to pull it out (after I try to reverse it, which as you say may not result in anything different).

Any ideas on a rig is appreciated even if it is some stuff from Harbor Freight for this one time (once in a while) use.
 

Reach4

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What kind and size of drop pipe?

Maybe hand over hand, but with a method to hold the pipe if you rest.
 

2devnull

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Does anyone know how to the poly pipe attaches to the pump? Is there some type of screw-in with barb on the other side adapter that you use clamps?
 

Reach4

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Does anyone know how to the poly pipe attaches to the pump? Is there some type of screw-in with barb on the other side adapter that you use clamps?
That is how poly attaches.

What do you see at the top? Presuming that you are not in some cold part of Florida, you probably have a well seal. The pipe would hang from a fitting or fittings. You may have galvanized or PVC pipe down there.

I suggest you watch some Youtube videos. There are a lot of variations that you may deal with.

Take pictures as you go.

Valveman is not saying to not try the wire swap thing. He is saying to not hold out a lot of hope, but it is still easy enough to try.
 

2devnull

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Yes, been watching tons of videos, however many have the pitless adapter and mine wouldn't as at the top of the well casing is the well seal with four screws and another four sided cap nut. A galvanize tee piece comes out for the water (top part of tee is cap) and another smaller galvanized pipe for the wire.

I tried the wire swap thing. Didn't seem to work although it wasn't tripping the overload but I only let it run for 5-seconds each of the three times.

BTW - I see here a lot of mention to not use torque arrestors. What's the reasoning?
 

LLigetfa

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BTW - I see here a lot of mention to not use torque arrestors. What's the reasoning?
That depends on the casing size. On a 4 inch casing, bits of rubber shed from a broken torque arrestor could prevent pulling the pump. I have a 6 inch casing and when I pulled my pump, the torque arrestor had broken and missing bits.
 

Valveman

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Torque arrestors always have broken parts, come lose, or just swell and stick the pump in the well. They really only help if you are cycling the crap out of the pump, so don't do that. Use double jacketed wire and it won't chafe from cycling. Never put anything down a well you don't have to.
 

2devnull

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That depends on the casing size. On a 4 inch casing, bits of rubber shed from a broken torque arrestor could prevent pulling the pump. I have a 6 inch casing and when I pulled my pump, the torque arrestor had broken and missing bits.
I see.

Never put anything down a well you don't have to.
Makes a lot of sense.

Where do I get double jacketed wire? Read this and saw he took a different approach by putting the wire in another poly. Is this a good idea or is it putting things down that you don't have to?

water_pipe_wire_pipe.jpg
 

Valveman

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Yeah don't need that either. Where the wire comes out at the ends of the poly conduit they will chafe. I see zip ties, torque arrestor, and poly conduit that don't have to go down the well, so they shouldn't.

I like THHN-THWN direct burial cable. Some people call it tray cable. It is meant for direct bury and is not "rated" for submersibles, but works better than any sub wire I have used. Use to buy this stuff by the truckload. Looks like this.
wire2.jpg
 

2devnull

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Yeah don't need that either. Where the wire comes out at the ends of the poly conduit they will chafe. I see zip ties, torque arrestor, and poly conduit that don't have to go down the well, so they shouldn't.

I like THHN-THWN direct burial cable.
I notice it is not solid. My current cable is 10 gauge solid. Any issues here?

BTW - Do I really need to change the cable on this replacement? been down 12 years.

Given I just need just over 3 pieces of 20-ft sch-80 PVC, I'm wondering if I should go with that instead of poly. I've been advised to go with 2" sidr-7 poly and move from 40 GPM to 35 GPM. Am I getting appropriate advise?

Also, what do you hold the cable to the poly/pipe with?
 

Reach4

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I've been advised to go with 2" sidr-7 poly and move from 40 GPM to 35 GPM. Am I getting appropriate advise?
What the heck have you been telling these advisers to cause that advice?
 
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