Debris from rim jets during/after plunging

[CY7]

I haven't found much addressing this issue online (this is the best I could find).

About a month ago I plunged the toilet and shortly afterward noticed literal bits of crap and toilet paper coming out of the rim jets when flushing. The front right quadrant (when facing the toilet) rim jets had water coming out slowly or not at all (slightly improving after repeated flushings to clear debris). This took a few days and over 100 flushes to clear it.

Since then I've had to plunge a few more times, and the issue has recurred. The most recent plunging I noticed that crap and toilet paper was coming out the rim jets while plunging (starting at the back of the toilet, and working around toward the front), and now debris is again coming out of the rim jets while flushing.

Is there any way (other than refraining from plunging the toilet) to stop this from happening? Does this indicate that something (e.g. a check valve) is broken in the toilet? Should the toilet be replaced?

How can I convince my landlord that this is happening? He came over the first time this issue happened and was convinced that it was rust debris from the bolts in the tank. He said he called his plumber and described what I said was happening and his plumber laughed at the idea.

If the toilet needs to be replaced, what's the best way of convincing my landlord it needs to be replaced?

Toilet model: Water Ridge C210912 1.28 gpf - apparently not a good toilet.

 

[LLigetfa]

Some of the water coming from the tank is directed to the small holes around the rim while a larger amount shoots through a larger hole below the water line. Since both are fed from the same source and since there is nothing to prevent reversal of flow, it stands to reason that vigorous plunging can send carp up and out the rim holes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

How can I convince my landlord that this is happening? He came over the first time this issue happened and was convinced that it was rust debris from the bolts in the tank. He said he called his plumber and described what I said was happening and his plumber laughed at the idea.

If the toilet needs to be replaced, what's the best way of convincing my landlord it needs to be replaced?

If you present it as an upgrade rather than trying to establish blame, he may have a different mindset. Select a toilet, and offer to split the costs?

Really, a good toilet should seldom if ever need plunging with normal use.

I am not a landlord or tenant.

 

[Jadnashua]

There are a few reasons why a toilet might clog:
- excess extra thick toilet paper
- really large, hard BM
- a partial clog in the drain line
- an incorrectly setup toilet (not the proper amount of water in the tank or bowl prior to flushing)
- clogged internal water passageways - these include the rim jets, the siphon jet, and the trapway
- a lousy toilet.

Until you determine which one(s), it's hard to say you need a new toilet. Some of the original low-flow toilets were pathetic and would clog frequently. Not everyone's figured out how to do it well with their newest designs, either, but most are at least reasonable.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Have you looked inside the tank? The bolt tops do rust and flake pieces of rust can come loose. They’ll look like small black pieces on the water but never cause blockage.

What was said above that the rim and the bowl water are connected. It’s only true when there is a siphon jet in the bowl. If there is a hole at the bottom of the bowl you have it.

Changing a toilet is not that difficult and there are thousands of you tubes videos showing how to. If you have some basic tools and perhaps a buddy that had done it, go to Home Depot and get there $100 glacier bay model. Not the best but better than what you have and change it yourself. Just tell the landlord that you’ll take the cost of parts off the rent. He just might go for it since a plumber will install and higher grade toilet and the bill could be over $500. But he might be a nice guy and have it replaced. Tell him a good flush is better than a full house.

 

[CY7]

Thanks to everyone for the information and advice.

I didn't know that new toilets lacked a siphon jet, but that sounds like a good option.

I checked inside the tank first thing, and while there is a little bit of rust that rust is not the problem (it doesn't even appear to have moved since I first checked it after the first event). It's incredibly obvious that the relatively large pieces of debris are fecal matter and toilet paper for the first one or two dozen flushes, but our landlord didn't see it until after I'd already flushed the toilet many times and the debris pieces were much smaller.

In decades of plunging a variety of toilets at various apartments and houses this issue had never happened before, however I had to plunge this toilet more often than prior toilets.

I'm looking into toilets and will consider a DIY install.

 

[Reach4]

I didn't know that new toilets lacked a siphon jet, but that sounds like a good option.

I think a toilet you would be looking at would have a siphon jet, but not one of those little holes. I think the trend is to siphon jets that are bigger, and would be less likely to clog.

 

[LLigetfa]

I would not go out of my way to look for a replacement that doesn't use a jet. I replaced two old school toilets that plugged easy, didn't have a jet, and used more water than the current ones that have a jet and hardly ever plugs. Most often if they do plug, just leaving them soak for a bit gets them moving on the next flush. Pouring warm soapy water in the bowl helps. Don't use hot water if you have a wax seal (don't ask).

 

[WorthFlorida]

I take back my comment above. I have a newly install Toto Drake and it has a siphon jet. It works 5 stars.

 

[rfc]

Just experiencing this exact same problem.
During plunging, waste must have seeped in thru the rim jets. I've flushed many many times - tried heated vinegar tried bleach and even tried some draino down the overflow tube - every flush a little discolored water and most times a very small amount of waste comes out. It flushes ok and most of the discolor and waste has stopped but still giving of a bad odor which even that is better but gross! Hopefully it will clear out, if it doesn't within a week I will take it outside, take tank off so I can hopefully clean out the inside of the rim jets cavity.

 

[Reach4]

Just experiencing this exact same problem.
During plunging, waste must have seeped in thru the rim jets. I've flushed many many times - tried heated vinegar tried bleach and even tried some draino down the overflow tube - every flush a little discolored water and most times a very small amount of waste comes out. It flushes ok and most of the discolor and waste has stopped but still giving of a bad odor which even that is better but gross!

Why are you plunging? There are two or three reasons:

1. There is a clog in the toilet pathway itself. In that case, I suggest you replace the toilet with one less likely to clog. Most newer toilets are more clog-resistant with smoother-flowing trapways
2. Similar, there is something obstructing the trapway, and a closet auger may get that out.
3. There is a partial clog in the drain line below the toilet. Get this fixed. That may show as a second flush being slower than the first.

Hopefully it will clear out, if it doesn't within a week I will take it outside, take tank off so I can hopefully clean out the inside of the rim jets cavity.

That is a lot of work. Some toilets have gotten away from little rim jets in favor of two or three big holes up to to induce a swirl. There are good-flushing toilets for maybe $200 give or take. Do you really want to invest that time and effort in the old toilet? I hope you don't already feel too invested in that.

If you are going to continue to plunge, try to seek out some plunger that will direct its flow to the output in preference to the siphon jet.

Here is something else you could try. Get a 5 gallon container. Pour water from as high as you can as fast as you dare. That may push stuff thru.

 

[Jadnashua]

Most people do not use a plunger properly, and that can force crud backwards into places you really don’t want it to go.

To plunge a toilet, push down slowly, then rapidly pull back up. Since the crud was lodged while going down, trying to push it further down, rather releasing the wedging by pulling it back is the best way to help it rearrange, so that it can then flow out on its own.

Forcefully pushing down can move it places you really don’t want it to go...

 

[moflow]

Most people do not use a plunger properly, and that can force crud backwards into places you really don’t want it to go.

To plunge a toilet, push down slowly, then rapidly pull back up. Since the crud was lodged while going down, trying to push it further down, rather releasing the wedging by pulling it back is the best way to help it rearrange, so that it can then flow out on its own.

Forcefully pushing down can move it places you really don’t want it to go...

The technique that has always worked for me is Terry Love's very short, rapid continuous plunger strokes. Once the bowl water surface is really vibrating, gently pull the plunger up, and usually voila! The bowl will empty and everything is right again.

 

[Jadnashua]

The key to a successful toilet plunge is you get more effect by pulling up than pushing down. Pushing down is what caused it to get jammed in there in the first place. Pulling it back, so things can rearrange themselves gives it a better chance to then flow out and away. Agitating it with shorter strokes certainly doesn’t hurt as much as forceful pushes down.

 

[ramack]

I'm having a similar issue with my 2yr old K-22907-0 Kohler. I have not been home when the toilet gets plugged and plunged to see "how" it's getting done. But the result is that after the toilet is cleared, the rim jets (8 to 4 o'clock ) are blocked. I am able to clear some of the jets out using a wire and poking up through, but 7 - 5 o'clock are still plugged. This weekend I took the tank off, put a small dia. tube in the inlet for the rim jets and tried to flush out debris that way, but it wasn't as effective as poking the wire through the jets, flushing and repeating this several times. While doing this and flushing, there are clumps of toilet paper that come out of the jets and sink into the bowl. I have never had or seen this happen before. Not sure if this is a characteristic of these new low water usage toilets or just a bad design.

I'm contacting Kohler this week to see if they've seen this issue, how to resolve and prevent.

 

[Reach4]

I'm having a similar issue with my 2yr old K-22907-0 Kohler. I have not been home when the toilet gets plugged and plunged to see "how" it's getting done. But the result is that after the toilet is cleared, the rim jets (8 to 4 o'clock ) are blocked. I am able to clear some of the jets out using a wire and poking up through, but 7 - 5 o'clock are still plugged. This weekend I took the tank off, put a small dia. tube in the inlet for the rim jets and tried to flush out debris that way, but it wasn't as effective as poking the wire through the jets, flushing and repeating this several times. While doing this and flushing, there are clumps of toilet paper that come out of the jets and sink into the bowl. I have never had or seen this happen before. Not sure if this is a characteristic of these new low water usage toilets or just a bad design.

I'm contacting Kohler this week to see if they've seen this issue, how to resolve and prevent.

Problem could be a partially clogged drain line that the toilet feeds. It could be clogs in the toilet. But the vigorous high-volume plunging is then pushing the material up through the siphon jets,

 

[ramack]

I think I've determined why's it happening. I'm looking for solutions for unplugging the jets.

I'd also be interested to know the manufacturer of the toilets others have had similar problems/issues. Is it isolated to Kohler or do American Standard, Toto etc newer models have similar symptoms?

 

[Reach4]

Many of the Toto toilets have 2 or 3 big holes, rather than a bunch of rim holes. So those should be immune from plugging by the material.

 

[WorthFlorida]

I think I've determined why's it happening. I'm looking for solutions for unplugging the jets.

I'd also be interested to know the manufacturer of the toilets others have had similar problems/issues. Is it isolated to Kohler or do American Standard, Toto etc newer models have similar symptoms?

It has nothing to do with the manufacture. If you use a cup type plunger your making a seal above the siphon jet. A good push and the clog doesn't clear, all that pressure goes to path o least resistance, back up the siphon jet that leads to the rim.

 

[Jadnashua]

You can think of the plunger as a pump...when you push down, if the waste can't go down and out, you'll be pumping it up. Simple physics. This is why the technique of agitating the waste then pulling up rapidly is the better way to unclog things. Once you've got crud up in those smaller passages, it's going to be difficult getting it out. The typical rim hole is quite small diameter, and solid waste and paper will have a tough time coming out, and with all of the holes, trying to push it back the way it came will require being creative it block off all of the holes but maybe one, and then trying to inject a water stream into that channel to push it back the other way where it came from.