Changed Flapper - Toilet tank still losing water - any ideas why?

[fsrph]

I noticed the fill valve in my toilet was making a bubbling sound near the top. Though it had a leak. Also the fill valve was coming on occasionally to add a few inches of water to the tank. I replaced the fill valve and that's working fine. However, the new fill valve is still coming on occasionally to add water to the tank. I thought the flapper may be the cause.

I read about the dye test so I completed that next. The dye did eventually show in in the bowl but it took about 3 or 4 hours before it began showing. So, off to change the flapper. Bought this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Korky-2-in-Easy-Fix-Flush-Valve-Repair-Kit-2003PK/100147930 and installed it per the directions. Well, wouldn't you know it, I am still losing water from the tank. So, I leave the water supply off and after 2 or 3 hours the tank water goes down an inch or so.

I am at a loss what to do next. The water must be getting by the flapper, right? There is no wet area on the floor so how else can the tank be losing water? If it matters I have an older American Standard toilet with a 2 inch flush valve. Could it just be the toilet is old so you have to expect some water loss? Anyone have any ideas on what I can do next? Thanks.

Francis

 

[Reach4]

You could leave the water off to the toilet, and see how far down the water falls. If it is a crack in the overflow tube (unlikely), you might be able to patch that. Or just replace the flush valve and tank to bowl seal.

If you were thinking about getting a new toilet anyway, you could accelerate that move.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Flapper]

Shouldn't use the repair kit unless the seat is damaged; that repair kit is for if you have a damaged seat, so you add a new seat.
Possibly your repair kit is leaking.
Or it might be possibly leaking through the flush valve gasket.

The best thing to do would probably be to replace the flush valve assembly; that should take care of any issues with the flush valve and/or gaskets.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fluidmaster-2-in-Flush-Valve-Replacement-Kit-507AKP7/203433166

 

[Terry]

Does the small tube from the fill valve daylight above the overflow tube?

 

[Flapper]

Ohh right I forgot about that; yeah check to see if the tube is siphoning water or not; that's another possible cause of a leak.

 

[fsrph]

You could leave the water off to the toilet, and see how far down the water falls. If it is a crack in the overflow tube (unlikely), you might be able to patch that. Or just replace the flush valve and tank to bowl seal.

If you were thinking about getting a new toilet anyway, you could accelerate that move.

You could leave the water off to the toilet, and see how far down the water falls. If it is a crack in the overflow tube (unlikely), you might be able to patch that. Or just replace the flush valve and tank to bowl seal.

If you were thinking about getting a new toilet anyway, you could accelerate that move.

If I leave the water off for say 10-12 hours the tank will be virtually empty. I assume many, if not most, here are plumbing professionals. I am not but can do simple repair jobs by following instructions. I read the guide from Home Depot on how to replace the flush valve and tank to bowl gasket. It looks beyond my skills. I guess I could just leave the toilet as is and let the tank fill every now and then. If it gets worse I'd have to call a plumber to do the repair correctly.

If a plumber does the above repair anyone know the approx cost vs an average new toilet? I'm just thinking if should repair it or get another toilet. Thanks

Francis

 

[Flapper]

I guess I could just leave the toilet as is and let the tank fill every now and then.

No, don't, it wastes a LOT of water even if you don't think it does.
Did you know that about 20% of toilets in the world are leaking 200 or more gallons per day?

 

[fsrph]

Does the small tube from the fill valve daylight above the overflow tube?

The tube from the fill valve is held by a clip to the top of the overflow tube. There is no water coming out of this tube.

Francis

 

[fsrph]

No, don't, it wastes a LOT of water even if you don't think it does.
Did you know that about 20% of toilets in the world are leaking 200 or more gallons per day?

I did know toilets are a big source of water loss but wasn't aware of your numbers. I read about a fill valve that will only add water after a flush. Called Leak Guard or something like that. Maybe I could use that to save water?

Francis

 

[Flapper]

Here is how to change a flush valve in a nutshell (not literally):

1. Take lid off
2. Disconnect water supply
3. Remove old bolts (might need to cut if they are rusted)
4. Lift tank and set down
5. (optional) Clean under-tank area of toilet bowl
6. Remove old gasket
7. Unscrew flush valve locknut (you may need a large pliers or similar tool, you might not have)
8. Remove flushvalve
9. Measure, mark and cut or adjust overflow tube of new flush valve
10. Insert new flush valve
11. Screw locknut on
12. Put new gasket on
13. Place tank on bowl
14. Insert new bolts
15. Tighten bolts evenly until tank touches and doesn't rock
16. Install flapper and hook chain
17. Connect water supply
18. Test
19. Put lid on tank
20. Celebrate

 

[fsrph]

I inadvertently left out some info in my original post. When I look at the flush valve it isn't level. The back of the value is noticeably higher than the front. Don't know if this is important or not.

Francis

 

[Flapper]

I did know toilets are a big source of water loss but wasn't aware of your numbers. I read about a fill valve that will only add water after a flush. Called Leak Guard or something like that. Maybe I could use that to save water?

Francis

There are fill valves that have a mechanism that will not refill the bowl if the lever has not been pressed; this includes Fluidmaster's LeakGuard and Korky's WaterWi$e.

It prevents waste of water from leaks by not filling the tank if the lever has not been pressed.
It will not fill the tank if the water has leaked away.
That means the water would leak away and you would have little or no water to flush after a while.
They prevent water waste from leaks and alert you about leaks when they appear, but they do not solve leaks.

 

[Flapper]

I inadvertently left out some info in my original post. When I look at the flush valve it isn't level. The back of the value is noticeably higher than the front. Don't know if this is important or not.

Francis

That's typical; most valves are like that.

 

[Jadnashua]

Depending on how the flapper valve was packaged, sometimes, they end up with a slight wave...i.e., not flat. Often, after some time, the water pressure will straighten them out, but not always. That can cause a slight leak. If the chain is too taught or too long and it catches underneath the flapper, that will cause a leak. If the nut holding the flush valve to the tank is loose, that can cause a leak. If you try to use both the ears on the overflow tube and the ring around the overflow tube to hold the flapper valve in place, that can cause a leak (it should be one or the other, never both!). If the lever arm is offset too far, that can pull the flapper at an angle, and it doesn't always fall back centered, and that can cause a leak.

 

[WJcandee]

Francis, shoot us a picture of the interior of your toilet.

Sometimes, there is a crack in the overflow riser on the flush valve an inch or so down the valve. Try squeezing the tube and see if one becomes apparent. That is more common than people think, if the obvious stuff isn't fixing the problem (i.e. chain isn't set too tight or too loose [optimally one link of chain sitting on top of the flapper when at rest], fill tube isn't inserted down the overflow riser, flapper isn't being pulled off-center by the flush lever when you push it (as Jim mentioned), etc.). If you do have a crack, it can be fixed with Miracle Tape or similar.

If the water level is going all the way to the bottom of the tank if you turn the water off all night, then it's either a big crack in the bottom of the valve (unlikely) or, more likely, something at the intersection of the flapper and the mouth of the valve. I would pull off that new seat you installed, and brillo the mouth of the valve really well. Then try your flapper again or maybe another flapper. The picture of your tank will help us suggest the correct one. The basic Korky black rubber flapper works amazingly-well, and is the cheapest thing they sell.

Let us know and we will help you get this fixed.

PS Changing the flush valve is absolutely-doable. It's a PITA, but it's doable in a couple of hours, usually, for a newbie.

 

[Flapper]

PS Changing the flush valve is absolutely-doable. It's a PITA, but it's doable in a couple of hours, usually, for a newbie.

Not a pita for me. It's fun.
Changing the flush valve should almost certainly solve this problem.

 

[fsrph]

Francis, shoot us a picture of the interior of your toilet.

Sometimes, there is a crack in the overflow riser on the flush valve an inch or so down the valve. Try squeezing the tube and see if one becomes apparent. That is more common than people think, if the obvious stuff isn't fixing the problem (i.e. chain isn't set too tight or too loose [optimally one link of chain sitting on top of the flapper when at rest], fill tube isn't inserted down the overflow riser, flapper isn't being pulled off-center by the flush lever when you push it (as Jim mentioned), etc.). If you do have a crack, it can be fixed with Miracle Tape or similar.

If the water level is going all the way to the bottom of the tank if you turn the water off all night, then it's either a big crack in the bottom of the valve (unlikely) or, more likely, something at the intersection of the flapper and the mouth of the valve. I would pull off that new seat you installed, and brillo the mouth of the valve really well. Then try your flapper again or maybe another flapper. The picture of your tank will help us suggest the correct one. The basic Korky black rubber flapper works amazingly-well, and is the cheapest thing they sell.

Let us know and we will help you get this fixed.

PS Changing the flush valve is absolutely-doable. It's a PITA, but it's doable in a couple of hours, usually, for a newbie.

w

 

[fsrph]

Francis, shoot us a picture of the interior of your toilet.

Sometimes, there is a crack in the overflow riser on the flush valve an inch or so down the valve. Try squeezing the tube and see if one becomes apparent. That is more common than people think, if the obvious stuff isn't fixing the problem (i.e. chain isn't set too tight or too loose [optimally one link of chain sitting on top of the flapper when at rest], fill tube isn't inserted down the overflow riser, flapper isn't being pulled off-center by the flush lever when you push it (as Jim mentioned), etc.). If you do have a crack, it can be fixed with Miracle Tape or similar.

If the water level is going all the way to the bottom of the tank if you turn the water off all night, then it's either a big crack in the bottom of the valve (unlikely) or, more likely, something at the intersection of the flapper and the mouth of the valve. I would pull off that new seat you installed, and brillo the mouth of the valve really well. Then try your flapper again or maybe another flapper. The picture of your tank will help us suggest the correct one. The basic Korky black rubber flapper works amazingly-well, and is the cheapest thing they sell.

Let us know and we will help you get this fixed.

PS Changing the flush valve is absolutely-doable. It's a PITA, but it's doable in a couple of hours, usually, for a newbie.

w

 

[fsrph]

First of all thanks to everyone for your help. The toilet water supply was off all night and the tank is empty this morning. I tried to remove the black edge that was placed around the edge of the flush valve but it was very solidly attached. I'll try again later but I don't think I can get it off. I'll try to attach some pictures.

 

[Reach4]

In this photo, it looks like the water fell to about the height of the original seat, and not to the bottom of the tank. That seems to me to suggest the sealant between the new black piece and the original seat is leaking. It could be that waiting longer would have made the water level drop further. In that case the problem would be the tank to bowl seal. But if the water stays as it is in this photo, I suspect the sealant was ineffective.