Does this shower drain need to be redone?

[hindsight]

We just had a bathroom remodeled in our 102 year old home. We've identified a number of issues, and are trying to separate the "just ugly" from the "genuinely unsound".

I would appreciate an experienced perspective on the odds that this shower drain is structurally stable and watertight. I've attached a few photos of what it looks like looking up from the dirt-floor crawlspace below, and images captured upstairs during the construction process.

If the drain a no-go, can you help me pinpoint the specific evidence I can cite if I want to appeal to the general contractor's better nature to fix it? (GC has not yet seen these photos, and did not enter the crawlspace during the job.)

For reasons that may be apparent, I don't trust the waterproof integrity of the shower pan liner as built. I do not know whether they pierced the membrane with the screws they used to attach the wood chips, but I did confirm there is no preslope under the membrane.

I will be addressing other issues with this build in a separate post, as there are some additional complications there. Any insight on the drain integrity and potential workable fixes much appreciated.

Thanks so much to all the folks willing to help someone they've never even met

 

[Terry]

I don't see enough to know where those screws came from. If the heads are below the liner, it should be fine.
Pick up a 2" mechanial plug, and fill the pan with water as a test. Then go back under and make sure it's dry.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Watch some of the videos from Schluter Systems about showers and wet rooms, and read up on some of the white papers on their website.

As it is now, I don't see any waterproofing whatsoever. Contrary to what many think, cement board is NOT waterproof. It's just able to resist water longer than drywall can, but will still deteriorate and crumble, just slower. It's "better than drywall", but not by much.

I don't know who you hired or how much you are paying for this, basically I see a general shower being built, which would have been completely acceptable in the 80's or even 90's, as this was the norm. Your contractor is just using his experience in what he has been doing for decades. I don't see any poor workmanship here, just lack of knowledge about what is available today.

 

[Jadnashua]

First, I'd never try to do a shower floor directly over planks - a sheet of ply would be required. Second, it looks like they put the liner (assuming they used one!) flat, directly on the floor, which is a n0-go. The wood square underneath the drain at the top means very little depth of the mudbed there. Industry standards call for it to be 1-1/4", but some people get away with it thinner. Third, it really appears that there are screws in the cbu way too low, and then, they do not have the prescribed spacing. Code says, no penetrations within 2" above the top of the curb, and definitely none INTO the curb through the liner. Manufacturer's cbu installation instructions specifically call for ALL seams to be covered with an alkali-resistant mesh tape and thinset which ties each sheet together, especially at the corners. Your seams are NOT covered. It looks like they nailed cbu onto the inside (and maybe later, no picture) on top of the curb, which goes against all instructions. I do not see any curb corners glued in place, the liner was just cut, and draped over the top of the curb. Like to run the liner over the top and down a little bit, rather than stopping it at the edge. Can't tell, but the liner on top of the curb SHOULD be sloped towards the shower. Most codes call for a flood test of the liner before the setting layer...my guess is that that was never done. While harder to verify in toto after a setting bed is installed, I'd get a plug for the drain, fill the up to the top of the curb, and wait...my guess is that it will leak like a sieve.

IMHO, at least from what I can see in the pictures (it's somewhat hard without being there), this shower is not being built to industry standards, which is what you paid for.

Check out www.johnbridge.com for help with tiling.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

this shower is not being built to industry standards, which is what you paid for.

He didn't mention who was building it, nor how much he paid for it. It may be one of those "do it for as cheap as possible" jobs. The homeowner would have to scan and post here any written quotes they may have received.

Again, the work does not appear to be sloppy, just appears to have materials deleted on purpose to budget contrainsts or lack of knowledge by the builder.

If the grout is well done, this shower should work fine for a few years. Any expectations over 3 years, I'd want it down in writing.

 

[hindsight]

Thanks so much to all of you

The reason I was asking about the shower drain specifically is that if it were unarguably a problem, I was hoping it might provide leverage to get some other issues addressed that the contractor *has* argued about. (Or it would motivate us to pay to get a new contractor to remediate if existing contractor won't.)

The range of problems on this job runs the gamut, and I'm at a loss on exactly where the line is between the 'must fix' and 'woulda been nice'. Examples:

1. Shower head and vanity drain leak - unarguably a problem and will ask contractor to fix
2. They built right over the disintegrating wood and moldy drywall - definitely poor form, but unclear what the actual structural risks are
3. Shower not Universal Plumbing Code compliant - which makes me uncomfortable, but UPC doesn't apply in Illinois
4. Shower curb pitches out rather than in, the curb membrane is punctured on all three sides by cement board screws and stops short of all corners, and the curb sits atop the most damaged part of the subfloor - not a code violation here and no way to be certain it leaks without getting it wet, but doesn't appear to have a lot of resiliency left in the seemingly likely event of water intrusion (and evidence of any slow leaks would initially only be visible from an unused crawl space)
5. Cement board seams aren't taped, membrane is punctured low on all walls, no preslope was used, slope of shower floor is uneven, drain collar isn't flush with the subfloor creating a potential drainage dam in the absence of preslope, unclear whether weep holes were protected, and no waterproofing was used for walls - not great, but will it be serviceable for two adults long term if we go to town with 511 grout sealant and silicone every two years, and are diligent with the exhaust fan and post-shower squeegee?
6. The bottom wall tile in the entryway pitches in 1/2" over 9.5" - which made us uneasy about the feasibility of hanging the frameless shower door will we realized there was no longer a wall stud near the entrance anyhow due to the location of the new pocket door >_<
7. Some of the linoleum tile was left on the bathroom floor in the doorway, with cement board screwed over it but no thinset underneath - making me worry about about tile cracking or popping if the cement board flexes at all
8. Second bath plumbing was shimmed 3/4" back into the wall to pull the valve further in - unsure how that will pan out in the long term
9. Frame on pocket door was cut to avoid moving electrical outlet - not a load bearing wall and sits under unfinished attic, so probably okay?
10. There is wet dirt under the existing PVC vent / drain system that appears to my untrained eye be from new slow leaks (based on the size and texture of the wet spots on the dirt floor) - they may have been caused by the vibration of the remodel, but given the difficulty in proving this and the fragile trust I have in the existing contractor, I am inclined to pay an unrelated plumber to inspect and address

I asked about a lot of these issues during construction but was told they weren't important and this is how they build their own bathrooms and 'it will be perfect'. Lots of other little things happened that are only annoying but further erode benefit of the doubt - like tiles cracked where tools got dropped, finish chipped off the faucet during install, lots of grit painted into the wall, wrong color grout (ivory vs. the gray I provided) used when patching popped / cracked tiles in the second bathroom, etc. The sum total of stuff has made me afraid to water test the system, as at least right now nothing is actively getting worse while we try to figure this out (and if it's a slow leak it will be tough to tell right away). I also confess I am reluctant to spend much time slithering around under the bathrooms because working in our low-clearance moldy crawl space with an uneven dirt floor mysteriously blanketed with broken building supplies feels like being buried alive at an abandoned building site, but that's a separate issue >_<

So at present I guess the plan is:

1. Solicit a variety of perspectives online on what's important to consider or do
2. Seal the heck out of the grout and add silicone to all changes of plane, then do our own data gathering:
   1. Take some 'before' pinless moisture meter readings and infrared pics with a rental camera from Home Depot.
   2. Flood test the shower and do 'after' moisture readings and infrared pics in hopes of catching any slow leaks.
   3. Wait a week and moisture meter test again to see if there are any areas that aren't drying.
   4. Get the custom shower door people out to determine if hanging any kind of shower door is possible.
   5. Get a cartridge-style air quality tester to assess mold levels in bathrooms vs. outside.
3. Get 'a professional' (not sure which kind?) to inspect the bathrooms / crawlspace and review the construction photos and moisture / infrared / mold data to make recommendations regarding the active leaks and the integrity of the water-damaged building materials and the shower (without burning too much energy lamenting the fact that this is all we were trying to fix to begin with...)
4. Use findings to make a punchlist, and bring to the original contractor to see what he will remediate.
5. Get someone else to fix any non-negotiable items he won't.

For long term peace of mind:

1. Find a way to weave a wire-sensor water alarm through the water supply, drain, and vent system to provide early warning of new leaks, and maintain a fresh tarp under the whole system any time anything is adjusted to help distinguish new water.
2. Make the crawl space window near the bathrooms openable and clean up some of the horrors to make it easier to inspect once a year.
3. Reseal grout and replace silicone every two years, use the squeegee after every shower, and recheck moisture meter readings, infrared images, mold counts and water stains on the tarp once a year.
4. Buy enough extra tile to replace the pan, curb, an possible cracked floor tiles if that's needed.
5. Never ever do a 'handshake' remodel again, regardless of how much trust a contractor has built among us and our friends over the years or whether we're 'just replacing existing stuff with things that aren't falling apart'.

Thoughts on any aspect of this welcome. Attaching photos in case that helps. All crawlspace photos are 'after' photos.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

You should have posted all that at the beginning.

At first, I thought you were a homeowner looking for a "budget" install and would accept whatever was white and shiny like a sucker new tenant.

You seem to know exactly what you want to expect. You don't need postings from strangers on the internet. That's not going to accomplish anything when you have expectations of a perfect flawless and fail-free install. Terrylove isn't legal help, and I doubt hardcopy printouts of threads will give your "general contractor" any paradigm visions of epiphany.

Re-read the first scentence from my first post here. At this point, that would definitely apply to you and I would absorb that religously.

You're going to tear all this up and get it re-done. You'll lose whatever you've already paid out, but at least you don't have to pay him any more for something that can never meet your requirements.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Find a way to weave a wire-sensor water alarm

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. A proper install with current industry standards does not require any of this.

Reseal grout and replace silicone every two years, use the squeegee after every shower, and recheck moisture meter readings, infrared images, mold counts and water stains on the tarp once a year.

You do know they invented epoxy to avoid all this? I have Kerapoxy CQ (feel free to look it up) in my home bathroom because I'm such a lazy bastard, I hate cleaning. It's still white white white with no mold no mildew after 3 years of zero cleaning.

Buy enough extra tile to replace the pan, curb, an possible cracked floor tiles if that's needed.

Again, a proper install with current industry standards does not require any of this.

Never ever do a 'handshake' remodel again, regardless of how much trust a contractor has built among us and our friends over the years

A phone call to your Schluter-Systems regional office will provide you with a list of licensed professionals that will guarantee their work in writing.

 

[hindsight]

Sorry it takes me so long to write out a reply. I've got a brain injury that slows me down, and it's also the reason I don't trust my judgement enough to plow forward with anything without sanity checking it with people who know more than I do. (Like I was hoping the drain might be a slam dunk 'this has to be fixed' - and some of the other stuff that the contractor pooh-poohed could have been fixed at the same time - but looks like I was wrong. That misplaced hope was how this whole conversation started backwards >_<)

The muddled brain also makes it harder for me to filter out the relevant info and get the questions to make sense, so I'm truly sorry if my posts come across jumbled or it's difficult to tell what I'm asking. I'm trying hard but I'm out of my depth and this whole situation is making things at home really strained. I only started reading up on this stuff when things on the build looked weird to me (specifically still being able to see the closet wall studs once the tile was halfway up the wall), so even though I've been throwing myself at this full time for almost a month, this is the best I could come up with. I really appreciate your patience and feedback.

What I'm trying to do at this stage is get clear on which things must be redone even if we have to take out a loan to to it. The GC thinks it's fine the way it is. I'm trying to figure out how to tell if that's true. I don't want to overreact, and I don't want to roll the dice on potentially serious damages. And I don't have the expertise to tell where the line is.

So if I try to translate that into questions, I'm looking for feedback on:

• Based on description and photos alone (no tests), which issues would somebody have to be an idiot not to rip out and redo?
• Does that list of 'tests' seem like a reasonable approach to figuring out what else has to be redone?

The followup measures are just because after all this it's hard to shake the feeling 'the house is a ticking time bomb and you can't trust anybody', and I would rather replace worrying with facts.

In any case, I don't want to wave paper at anyone. There's no signed contract and I found out at the end of the job that the GC ran the job without insurance and should have pulled a permit but didn't (and the blame for that rests with me, regardless of the circumstances that led there). There's nothing other than his integrity to compel him to do right by this job.

As a sidenote, that's the grout I bought but the contractor refused to use it, the job total was $8,500 (not including whatever a workaround custom shower door may cost), and this post took me three and a half hours to write. I really miss my old brain

 

[Jadnashua]

When you hire someone to do work, it is assumed to be done to at least the minimum industry standards and to follow all of the manufacturers' requirements for the products used. Regardless of what they say about having done it that way forever, it is NOT being done to the minimum industry standards, and if you were to refuse to pay the guy, and he took you to court, there is ample documentation around to support this. Plumbing code requires the waterproof layer to be sloped, a minimum of 1/4" per foot to the drain. It requires that there be no penetrations within 2" of the top of the curb. It requires a flood test prior to installing the setting bed. Those three things, at the base of the shower should be enough to win any battle, should it occur. Read the installation instructions for Durock...it requires the seams to be taped...again, enough of an error. Tile is NOT the waterproofing surface...it is a decorative, wear layer, and your shower should not leak even prior to the installation of the tile (although, you'd not want to do that as you'd contaminate the surfaces, making it really tough to bond the tile!).

There are really four things at play here: TCNA guidelines, ANSI specifications, the plumbing code, and the manufacturer's instructions...he has broken things from each of those four categories...

 

[Standardairconditioner]

When you hire someone to do work, it is assumed to be done to at least the minimum industry standards and to follow all of the manufacturers' requirements for the products used.

Homeowners are complete idiots when they let "friends of family" to do work, especially those that think they are better and above "industry standards".

Live and learn.

Regret is a bitch.