Kohler canister flush valve drops too quickly

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Seaner

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Now a very very old thread, but I found it and it helped e when i trouble shot my toilets handle holding issue. So after looking at these post I believe I've solved this issue. Firstly thanks for all the suggestions they helped me figure this out. Now lets talk a little about this issue. These toilets didn't exhibit this issue when new or we would of promptly said thanks but no thank to the retailer that sold us this toilet. So lets get that out of the way right now. Holding the handle for any length of time isn't the solution. Also readjustments generally may get you a little farther down the "now I got to fix this" road. So lets get to the fix. Because this happened slowly until one day we find ourselves double flushing, I immediately thought of hard water and scale buildup. Here in the bay area we have basically cement water. So it was naturally my first thought and for me it turned out right. Now a little about hard water, you may think your water is pristine but remember most water is from underground aquifers or treated surface water (reservoirs) and usually not demineralized. Having said that if you've tried everything else than keep reading. First of all i recommending cleaning out the bowl jets around the inside rim because scale will clog those and make for more maintenance of the bowl. I used a piece of 1/8 inch spring steel (found in a recycled wiper blades) and gently scraped the scale off. This increased the flow to clean the bowl but did nothing to fix the issue. Secondly and more importantly your problem most likely lies in the bottom of the bowl. For this you might want to have a way to pump out the bowl. Now this step requires getting your hands down in there and feeling since where the problem lies you won't be able to see. Now reach down and poke your finger into the water outlet from the tank (round hole that's aimed to the back of the toilet that jets water to bigger oval flush drain). Now is it smooth, without obstruction or stalagmites. Mine was so obstructed in such a way it actually felt like it was unfinished porcelain and actually made that way. Nevertheless less i constructed several chipping tools made from bent screw drivers and proceeded to clear literally chunks of mineralized deposits up to 1/2 - 3/4 inch thick from the jet port. By the way that jet port is relatively smooth finished porcelain so if its rough and scraggly you have hard water scale. I also took 1/4 inch thick pieces from the drain side beyond where I could see using a small hammer and these tools to gently chip these away. Once that was done, the toilet operated like day one. Now I went a step further and fully drained the bowl and added a cup of muriatic acid after chipping and let that work for 10 minutes to get what I missed (do so at your own risk as its probably not recommended
 

Seaner

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Sorry i hit the post reply by accident. Anyway after the cleanout it works great. Once clean you can see that its basically timing that gets affected when its clogged, not giving it enough time to develop the suction required to drain the bowl before the valve shuts. Probably not the best design but certainly serviceable. Lastly my wife buys generic walmart bleach tank pucks and they seem to control the hardwater buildup anyway hope this helps.
 

WJcandee

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Your solution makes sense. I had noticed in these posts that people alleged that they were initially happy with the toilets, then presumed that they no longer loosed the proper amount of water into the bowl because it didn't flush the same. We all knew that was wrong, but your experiment shows that the problem is what it often is when an older toilet doesn't flush right: the siphon jet is at least partially-clogged. I had this issue with a 1950s-era toilet not too long ago. Plenty of water in the flush, but it wouldn't clear all the material from the bowl. A bunch of work on the area around the siphon jet (inside the hole) made it function properly once again. Seems that in some locales, even 4 years is enough for stuff to accumulate inside these Kohlers.
 

stevev

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Seaner,

I ended up in a similar place.
I emptied the bowl using a paper cup and put a half gallon of muriatic acid in and let it set for 12 hours.
That light weight acid is a lot better than scratching up the porcelain trying to get the minerals out.
Working like new now.
My guess is to get 1.23 gal/flush they have engineered it so close to edge that a minor change in the flow rate through the throat puts it over edge to 'Not-Working' status.
Removing the minerals was all that was needed.
Hope this helps others. There are some weird solutions to this problem on the web (I tried the non-destructive ones - didn't work).
 

mr.steevo

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After 6 years our toilets have started having difficulties flushing as described on this thread. I bought a gallon of muratic acid, poured a 1/4 of it into the bowl with water and left it there for two hours while it did its thing. A half a box of baking soda added after two hours neutralizes the acid and after another 20 minutes I flushed it all away. The toilet almost works as new but I should have left the acid in longer than two hours to get everything out.
 

mr.steevo

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I should point out that muriatic acid is NOT a light weight acid. It is also known as Hydrochloric Acid and is strong. Wear chemical resistant gloves, long sleeves and pants, eye protection and make sure you can ventilate your space of the fumes. It will clean your toilet but please take some precaution.
 

Shuttrbg22

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You guys saved the day, cleaning out the mineral deposits fixed it.
 
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DocGadget

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Well I thank you all for the insight. Checking to see if there was any material blocking the center jet, I came across this... I'm not sure if it was put there by Kohler or not. It was loose and obstructing, once removed, the toilet worked flawlessly! Thanks Again

20170811_185214_resized.jpg
 

L.C. Cate

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My experience is EXACTLY the same and I have seven of those toilets to deal with. One problem I found was that the holes under the rim are very small and can easily clog up. Another desperate compromise to get 1.6 gallons to do the job. Fuzzy pipe cleaners, some Lime Away, and a scrubby pad opened them up BUT, the problem went back to the canister itself.

What actually WORKED was to zip-tie a tennis ball sized chunk of styrofoam to the canister. That adds buoyancy and now all toilets flush reliably. I wouldn't say it "cured" the problem but, the toilets are reliable now.

The Kohler with a cannister flush valve depend almost completly on a rush of water coming out of the hole at the front of the trap pushing the water in the trap out of toilet, and this happens very quickly. If that hole is stopped up the toilet will not flush as designed, and there should be no slack in the chain that pulls the cannister up. I fought with my K 4421 Kohler for a year before I figured this out.
 

Herb Wynans

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Same problem-o, me too. Worked fine at first then didn't. Had to hold down flush handle. Cleaned out under-rim holes. Called Kohler for trouble-shooting assistance (what a waste!). Replaced flush valve. Pulled toilet to check internal passages and sewer line. Had plumber augur toilet and check vent system. Nothing helped. Read entry on Page 2 of this site suggesting the use of muriatic acid to de-lime that little hole at the bottom of the basin. That may do the trick but, even if it does, I'll never buy another Kohler product.
 

RichPalma

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Also had to hold flush handle to get a full flush.

Cleaned out the hole at the bottom of the toilet bowl with a screwdriver and a glove, removing a lot of lime. Now it is flushing just like it used to before, no need to hold the handle down!!
 

Mark Wittholz

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How can we all have this same issue? My other toilets work fine. Well here is another way to permanently fix the issue. After all, the buoyancy of the canister is the issue. When I watch it flush, the canister fills with water through the holes in the bottom. What happens if you drill a bunch of holes in the bottom of a boat? It fills with water and sinks. I used JB weld to cover the flood holes in the bottom of the canister. This allows the canister to float for a longer period of time. You must leave one of the small holes open because some spray from the bowl hose does get in there during the flush and needs to drain. This works 100% of the time now. No holding down the flush lever.

250D90A7-B1B2-492F-A62E-B1B0E793A6A0.jpeg
487FDC4A-9D39-48EF-A53F-42C335295A5E.jpeg
 

CheeseHead2

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One of several possibilities: there's a partial clog slowing the flow down the drain, the siphon jet is partially clogged, the rim jets are clogged (mineral deposits?), the tank to bowl path has something in it, slowing the flow; the bowl isn't getting refilled properly and part of the flush is filling the bowl - it must be full at the start of the flush (where is the refill tube?).

All modern low flow toilets do not empty their tank when you flush but use that extra water to provide more pressure for the water that does go.
You are right! I cleaned out the little ports that rinse the bowl, but that didn't help much.

Then I used a small brush (like a small bottle brush) to clean out the water outlet at the very bottom of the toilet bowl. That completely resolved the issue! The toilet is flushing great again!
 

CheeseHead2

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These toilets didnt exhibit this issue when new....

Holding the handle for any length of time isnt the solution....

Because this happened slowly until one day we find ourselves double flushing, I immediately thought of hard water and scale buildup....

First of all i recommending cleaning out the bowl jets around the inside rim because scale will clogg those and make for more maintenance of the bowl....

Secondly and more importantly your problem most likely lies in the bottom of the bowl.... Now reach down and poke your finger into the water outlet from the tank (round hole thats aimed to the back of the toilet that jets water to bigger oval flush drain).... Mine was so obstructed in such a way it actually felt like it was unfinished porcelain and actually made that way....

Once that was done, the toilet operated like day one....
Thanks Seaner! I cleaned out the small water outlets around the top of the toilet bowl, but that did not have much effect. Then I used a soft bottle brush to clean out the large water outlet at the very bottom of the toilet. It turned out mine was quite obstructed with soft deposits. I didn't have to chip away anything hard at it, the soft brush did a great job. After that the toilet started flushing great again, with just a quick push and release of the toilet flushing handle. No need to hold down the handle for 3 seconds anymore to get a decent flush.
 
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Peter123

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How can we all have this same issue? My other toilets work fine. Well here is another way to permanently fix the issue. After all, the buoyancy of the canister is the issue. When I watch it flush, the canister fills with water through the holes in the bottom. What happens if you drill a bunch of holes in the bottom of a boat? It fills with water and sinks. I used JB weld to cover the flood holes in the bottom of the canister. This allows the canister to float for a longer period of time. You must leave one of the small holes open because some spray from the bowl hose does get in there during the flush and needs to drain. This works 100% of the time now. No holding down the flush lever.
Had same problem with Kohler WC Cleaned out every hole in WC Found your reply Blocked 3 holes on bottom of cannister Toilet works great Thanks Mark Wittholz
 
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WilliamF

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Great thread, thank you! Looking forward to trying it out on my hold-the-handle-down Kohler.

Dumb question for using muriatic acid in the tank - do you remove the canister assembly first? Do you drain the tank?

I tried searching on Google for instructions for using the acid in the tank, but can only find stuff about using it to clean stains out of the bowl.

I’m going to try a brush first since I’d rather not have to deal with a chemical like that. Our water isn’t hard, but it has a lot of sediment from the road salt on the highways near the reservoir. Maybe the deposits will just scrub out.

EDIT: I did not read the prior posts correctly. The acid goes in the *bowl* where the siphon yet is. I first tried using a nylon brush and vinegar, and it helped but not enough. I took out the water, added a half gallon of muriatic acid, let it sit for 6 hours, then carefully diluted and flushed the murky stuff left. Works great now, thank you!
 
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Rossi

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Created an account just to thank all of you for all the troubleshooting tips. I had the same issue and tried everything listed in this thread. Ultimately what worked was a cleanout of all the calcium build-up in the various water pathways. The main issue was with the bottom of the hole opposite the drain. It was plugged with calcium and mineral build-up.

Took a small 2" and 3" screwdriver and chipped, scrapped, and chiseled until smooth. Sure enough, this solved the problem and the toilet works as new.
 

Bart2

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I've had my K-3819 (1.6gpf with "Class Five" canister flush) for ~4 years.

The tank is filling to the proper level and everything appears to work as intended. My only problem is that I have to hold the handle down for an extra second or so to make sure the toilet flushes fully, otherwise 75% of the time toilet paper reappears when the bowl fills. Is there any way to adjust how long the canister stays afloat before dropping? (other than the obvious... which is to hold the lever down a bit longer)

kohler_canister.jpg
 

Bart2

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PROBLEM SOLVED! It's not the canister or anything in the top. Calcium is built up in the bottom of the bowl. You need to get a screwdriver and clean out the calcium (in the hole toward the front of the toilet). Finally fixed after changing everything out twice and getting ready to replace toilet. Here's the video that I found:

 
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