pump recommendations

[DeepWell]

Need a Deep well pump recommendation in case pump is bad.
Not sure if the pumps in the sticky (variable speed that Terry was talking about) will go very deep. Anyone have recommendations for a good pump?
Thanks in advance,
Dean

Type of pump?
Submersible___X_____

Three wire (control box)____x__
Wire Size_________ Wire Length________
or

Size of Pump?
Motor Horsepower?____3hp______

Pumping from?
Cistern tank___________
Pond, lake, river________
Water Well______x______
Depth of well____840FT______
Depth to water__630_______
Pump Setting___830_______
Pipe Size_________"
Drop Pipe Material
PVC______x__
Steel_______
Poly________

Well Recovery Rate_______gpm - Not sure, we run the pump and it draws down 18 inches.
Well Casing Diameter_______â€
Rock Well__________ Sand Well__________ Other______________
Date Well Drilled____1998________

Well Casing Material
PVC_____x___ Steel_________ Other_________


Pressure Tank?
Bladder or diaphragm tank (one pipe to tank)___x_______
Size or model of tank______30 gal?______
Air charge in top of tank, with pump off and water drained____40________PSI
(check with car tire gauge)
or
Plain Hydro Pneumatic tank (two pipes to tank, one in and one out)_________
Size of tank________________

Pressure Switch Setting?
On 30, off 50 ________
On 40, off 60____x_____
Other_______________

Pump Control Method?
Cycle Stop Valve model #_________
Variable speed control #__________
Pump Start Relay (sprinkler timer, no tank)__________
Manually turned on and off____________

Pump Protection
Cycle Sensor_________
Pumptec_____________
Low pressure cutoff switch (lever on side)__________
Other_______________

Filters or Softeners______Yes/both________
Before or after pressure tank_after______
Type of filter_____ whole House______________
Bypass available____Yes____________

Water Used For?
House Use___x____ Number of baths___2____ Number of People__6______
High Flow Showers_______gpm?
Plus/Or
Irrigation with timers________
Irrigation with hoses________
Heat Pump______gpm?


Problems Experienced
No Water______x___________
Water only part time________
Water at all times but weak_____
Air in water_______________
Pressure surging___________
Water Hammer (noise)______
Too Much pressure_________
Other____________________


Pump makes clicking or buzzing sounds___x_____
No Sounds______________
Pressure gauge reading________psi
Other____________________________________

Do you have, and know how to use
an Ampmeter and Voltmeter_____Yes_____________

Describe Problem_______had a period when the water would just start running out. Finally stopped altogether

 

[Valveman]

That is a deep well. Looks like you will need about a 3 HP, 10 GPM. At that depth and pressure it will produce 9 GPM which should be enough for 2 baths. Just get a regular 4" pump, not the variable speed kind.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DeepWell]

Thanks for the reply, I talked to some people today. The local pump supply recommends the grundfos pumps with stainless steel pump impellers . The guy that is scheduled to come out sells/recommends Schaefer with the tri flow impellers.
The resident geologist (neighbor) says our wells are in rock/limestone and sand isn't an issue (the selling point for the plastic impellers). What are the pump choices of the pros here?
DW

 

[Valveman]

I like Grundfos pumps as well. I don’t care for the SQ models which have plastic impellers and spin 10,600 RPM instead of 3450. The 4” pumps do have stainless steel impellers, but they now make them so thin that they are no better than the plastic impeller pumps. I think Franklin (Schaefer) has “tri seal” impellers not “tri flow”. But any such names are just marketing gimmicks, there is not much difference in the quality of any pumps on the market these days. They use the same impellers in the pumps at the box stores as they have for contractor pumps. Just that the housings at the box stores are plastic instead of brass or SS as most contractor grade pumps. Choose the pump with the best price that will work for that depth and pressure.

 

[clearwaterpump]

The Grundfos is the better choice. One question though do you plan on replacing the wire down the well? If so you may want to look into the variable speed drive. You would cut the wire size from size#4 to #8 which would be about $1,600 in savings. The new drive will offset that cost as they are expensive. If so go with a goulds drive or a yaskawa. They have a sleep function the franklin drive does not. Also, you may want to look at a larger tank if you stay with the across the line start pump.

 

[Justwater]

hey valveman, whats your position on VFD? btw those digital pressure switches sure look cool

 

[DeepWell]

The well guy recommends Schaefer submersible pumps? Are they any good?

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for the long post. But I am sure anyone who knows me already has the popcorn ready for the show. So here goes.

Deepwell
Nothing wrong with Schaefer pumps. They are the old Jacuzzi design that Franklin bought out, and they are as good as any.

Hello Clearwaterpump, welcome to the forum. Your opinions are appreciated. However, if you are going to discuss VFD’s, you will have to argue their validity with me. I stopped using VFD’s about 20 years ago, so it is nothing new to me. Below is an email I got yesterday, and my reply. This is only an example of the kind of communications I get several times a day.

Hello friends,
About 6 years ago we had a well dug for us and a Franklin Electric Constant Pressure Controller was installed. Since then we have had periodic yet regular loss of water. Lately it has been worse and we have been losing water for 3-4 days at a time. With a family of 5 with 6 dogs loss of water is a nightmare!
We have had the well company out a number of times but we have lost faith in them since every time they come there is a minimum $200 charge and even though they have changed some things the result is the same --- no water. Electricians have located the problem being the above mentioned pressure controller.
AT this point could you give us some guidance please? I could replace the unit myself (I think) but we just are not in the position to pay $1000+ to get the well fixed, nor are we able to manage without water.
Mike


Mike
I am sorry you are in this mess. That is exactly the way Variable Speed Drives or VFD’s are designed to work. The controller usually needs to be replaced several times in 5 years, and then at about 6 years you should need to replace the entire system, pump and all. “Planned obsolescence” at its finest. Manufacturers of pumps, motors, and VFD’s will tell you that the VFD saves energy, the soft start makes pumps last longer, the three phase motor cost less, and the wire size is smaller, which also saves you money. All of this is crap. Just marketing lies to con you into purchasing a VFD. Do you think manufacturers would spend all that money advertising VFD’s because it saves you a lot of money? No. They spend money advertising what makes them the most profit, which coincidentally comes out of your pocket.

Here is the deal. The Subdrive 75 uses a three phase, 1.5 HP motor with only a ¾ HP pump end. The Subdrive has to spin the ¾ HP pump at 4700 RPM to get 1.5 HP performance. If you fall for the VFD type system, you now have a three phase motor and wire that is too small to use with a single phase motor. This is how they lock you into replacing the $800 to $1200 VFD controller a few times. Replacing the controller is really your only option without pulling the pump and replacing it with a standard single phase motor, the right size pump end for 3450 RPM, and also replacing the wire that is too small. But after replacing the VFD controller a couple of times, most people realize they could have easily replaced the entire system with a standard single phase motor and the right size wire for much less.

Of course this is really the fault of the manufacturers as they heavily push VFD’s on all their suppliers and installers. Most installers are not even aware that VFD’s are meant to add extra grease to the wheels of manufacturers, keeping the corporate jets fueled, and paying for vacation houses.

The Cycle Stop Valve was designed to replace variable speed pumps. The problem is a Cycle Stop Valve doesn’t cost very much, last a long time, and makes your pump last a long time. So many pump installers, supply houses, and especially the manufacturers will say anything to keep you from installing a CSV. They want you to have a VFD instead, so they can continue to get money from you on a regular basis as you have already experienced.

It is rare for a pump/motor to last 6 years when controlled by a VFD. As a matter of fact, Franklin changed their warranty on these things from 5 years to 3 years for that very reason. VFD’s create harmonics, voltage spikes, resonance frequency vibration, excessive RPM, and many other things that shorten the life of the pump/motor. On top of that the VFD controllers themselves don’t last very long, as you well know.

You can probably replace the pump, motor, and wire for less than the cost of the first replacement VFD controller. Then adding a Cycle Stop Valve will give you constant pressure, and eliminate cycling, which will make your pump system last much longer. Or you can replace the VFD controller again, and be right back in the same boat.

I am sorry you are in this mess and that pump installers (like me) are getting a bad reputation. I will be glad to help you anyway I can.
Cary

Here is a link to another example of the same problem.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_21.html

 

[clearwaterpump]

Sorry for the long post. But I am sure anyone who knows me already has the popcorn ready for the show. So here goes.

Deepwell
Nothing wrong with Schaefer pumps. They are the old Jacuzzi design that Franklin bought out, and they are as good as any.

Hello Clearwaterpump, welcome to the forum. Your opinions are appreciated. However, if you are going to discuss VFD’s, you will have to argue their validity with me. I stopped using VFD’s about 20 years ago, so it is nothing new to me. Below is an email I got yesterday, and my reply. This is only an example of the kind of communications I get several times a day.

Hello friends,
About 6 years ago we had a well dug for us and a Franklin Electric Constant Pressure Controller was installed. Since then we have had periodic yet regular loss of water. Lately it has been worse and we have been losing water for 3-4 days at a time. With a family of 5 with 6 dogs loss of water is a nightmare!
We have had the well company out a number of times but we have lost faith in them since every time they come there is a minimum $200 charge and even though they have changed some things the result is the same --- no water. Electricians have located the problem being the above mentioned pressure controller.
AT this point could you give us some guidance please? I could replace the unit myself (I think) but we just are not in the position to pay $1000+ to get the well fixed, nor are we able to manage without water.
Mike


Mike
I am sorry you are in this mess. That is exactly the way Variable Speed Drives or VFD’s are designed to work. The controller usually needs to be replaced several times in 5 years, and then at about 6 years you should need to replace the entire system, pump and all. “Planned obsolescence†at its finest. Manufacturers of pumps, motors, and VFD’s will tell you that the VFD saves energy, the soft start makes pumps last longer, the three phase motor cost less, and the wire size is smaller, which also saves you money. All of this is crap. Just marketing lies to con you into purchasing a VFD. Do you think manufacturers would spend all that money advertising VFD’s because it saves you a lot of money? No. They spend money advertising what makes them the most profit, which coincidentally comes out of your pocket.

Here is the deal. The Subdrive 75 uses a three phase, 1.5 HP motor with only a ¾ HP pump end. The Subdrive has to spin the ¾ HP pump at 4700 RPM to get 1.5 HP performance. If you fall for the VFD type system, you now have a three phase motor and wire that is too small to use with a single phase motor. This is how they lock you into replacing the $800 to $1200 VFD controller a few times. Replacing the controller is really your only option without pulling the pump and replacing it with a standard single phase motor, the right size pump end for 3450 RPM, and also replacing the wire that is too small. But after replacing the VFD controller a couple of times, most people realize they could have easily replaced the entire system with a standard single phase motor and the right size wire for much less.

Of course this is really the fault of the manufacturers as they heavily push VFD’s on all their suppliers and installers. Most installers are not even aware that VFD’s are meant to add extra grease to the wheels of manufacturers, keeping the corporate jets fueled, and paying for vacation houses.

The Cycle Stop Valve was designed to replace variable speed pumps. The problem is a Cycle Stop Valve doesn’t cost very much, last a long time, and makes your pump last a long time. So many pump installers, supply houses, and especially the manufacturers will say anything to keep you from installing a CSV. They want you to have a VFD instead, so they can continue to get money from you on a regular basis as you have already experienced.

It is rare for a pump/motor to last 6 years when controlled by a VFD. As a matter of fact, Franklin changed their warranty on these things from 5 years to 3 years for that very reason. VFD’s create harmonics, voltage spikes, resonance frequency vibration, excessive RPM, and many other things that shorten the life of the pump/motor. On top of that the VFD controllers themselves don’t last very long, as you well know.

You can probably replace the pump, motor, and wire for less than the cost of the first replacement VFD controller. Then adding a Cycle Stop Valve will give you constant pressure, and eliminate cycling, which will make your pump system last much longer. Or you can replace the VFD controller again, and be right back in the same boat.

I am sorry you are in this mess and that pump installers (like me) are getting a bad reputation. I will be glad to help you anyway I can.
Cary

Here is a link to another example of the same problem.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_21.html

There are other drives then Franklin Subdrives that mismatch pump and motors. Sub-drives also do not use a traditional pressure transducer. So they cycle a ton. My recommendation was a yaskawa or Goulds Drive. They both have sleep functions.
I have installed VFD's for over ten years and if Motors were failing every six years and controllers every three do you really think I would ever recommend them?
I have used both cycle-stop valves and VFD's. Both work really well when applied correctly. The problems you are reffering to referr to bad applications and mistakes by contractors.
Just my un-biased opinion from a contractor whose signature is not a link to the Cycle-Stop Website

 

[Valveman]

You don’t have any Yaskawa drives that are ten years old. They have only been around a few years. If they hadn’t renamed them, they would be called the Redydrive4. But I guess they changed the name so people wouldn’t realize they had been redesigned so many times in such a short period. The Goulds drives have been through just as many “upgrades”. I think the Grundfos SQE is in what they call “generation 6”. They are getting better, but they will never be able to solve all the problems.

I am not bragging about it, but rather kicking myself that “sleep mode” is my fault. I taught classes for years in which I would describe a VFD holding constant pressure. As you know because you mentioned this problem with the Franklin drives, always holding a constant pressure doesn’t allow for any water to be used from a pressure tank. Therefore with small demands, the VFD controlled pump cycles like crazy. I explained this in a few classes with some VFD engineers sitting in the back, and the next thing I know we have “sleep mode”. And yes “sleep mode” helps, but it only solves one of many problems.

Some VFD systems have lasted for many years. I know of some that are 20+ years old. But those are the exceptions to the rule, and installers usually have more problems with VFD systems than they realize. I have had lots of contractors tell me they don’t have many problems with drives. Then in a short conversation they will start admitting things like, “well we did have to replace all the drives we put in the first year, something like the cooling fans were running backwards”. And “yeah we had a few we think got hit by lightning”. Or “come to think of it, we did have to replace a few motors, but the company warranted them, so I had forgotten about it”.

VFD’s are electronic, so people expect them to need occasional maintenance or replacement. Which is a shame that we have gotten so use to things not lasting very long. Everyday I hear from installers who have been using drives for 5 or 10 years. Then they start to realize they are losing customers. You may not even know of all the problems with the drives you installed, because after you warranted it a couple of times, the customer called someone else. It takes a long time to get good customers, only a minute to lose them, and many times you don’t even realize you have lost them. You may not think warranty calls that you do not charge for will bother the customer, but even one warranty call means the customer was out of water, and that makes you look bad.

The real problem is that this is the same argument I have been hearing for over 20 years. “You just need the “new drive” with the faster IGBT’s, “sleep mode”, Nema 4 enclosure, minimum start frequency, and on and on.” I fell for it myself for several years. Then I realized the valves we were using as backup for the VFD’s were doing a better job, where more reliable, cost less, and were keeping my customers happy. So I switched all my customers drive systems over to valves and never looked back. My years of training in electronics have been pretty much wasted, except for teaching me the basics that help me understand VFD’s can never overcome the laws of physics. They have come up with lots of Bandaids over the years, but filters, line reactors, swinging chokes, critical speed skipping, and anything else they try can’t solve the core problems.

Congratulations on your first year in business. I wish you success. I am just an old pump man that has been tailing out pipe for over 40 years. So what do I know? Maybe these newest drives really do have all the problems solved? But my best customers have all gone through this same thing, and we have become good friends, even after I had to say “I told you so”.

 

[clearwaterpump]

Thank You for the well wishes on our first year. While this is Clearwater Pump's first year I have been doing pump work since I was in highschool as I am sure most of the pump men on here have. 10 years ago we were using the GP10 drives. Mostly on large irrigation projects.

 

[DeepWell]

The pump was removed - turns out it was a Grundfos 2.5hp set at 780' (100' from bottom). Since that pump was barely adequate for the amount of head we have, we opted for the 3 hp, 7 gpm unit.
Our pitiless adaptor was found crooked and was causing the PVC pipe to bend with the pump hanging on it. The well guy used a section of steel pipe made by Jazeera to prevent any problems from it hanging crooked.
It's nice to have water again, and if this pump doesn't last as long, I'll go back in with another Grundfos. Time will tell.
My future plans is to get a 1500gal tank and have it pump once a night, and use a separate pump to supply pressure to the house. This should give the longest life to the well pump and give the house plenty of water/pressure.

 

[Craigpump]

780'? I hope that is sch 120 pvc with stainless or brass couplings

 

[DeepWell]

780'? I hope that is sch 120 pvc with stainless or brass couplings

It's sch 80 and steel couplings, however the check vales are SS.