JWelectric
Electrical Contractor/Instructor
I will and be proud of the fact that it might save even one life.You have done Great work JW, and that is one reason that Complying to Code and Insurance is so expensive.
Keep up the Good Work...
I will and be proud of the fact that it might save even one life.You have done Great work JW, and that is one reason that Complying to Code and Insurance is so expensive.
Keep up the Good Work...
Come on now Mike. You know for a fact that this has been done this way for years and was completely complaint and correct. This is a new requirement you are trying to sell and that does NOT mean that the old way was "completely incorrect".It is only through education that one learns that the way they have been doing things is completely incorrect.
Do you understand parallel paths?
If the EGC is bonded on both ends to the neutral then the equipment grounding conductor is carrying current just like the neutral.
A couple of years ago a good friend of mine was repairing the EMT between two panels in a ware house. This was a run of 2 inch pipe that carried the feeders from the main to a remote panel about 50 feet away. The EMT was the equipment grounding conductor and the remote panel did not have an isolated neutral.
A stack of boxes had toppled over and broke the connection at one of the couplings. When Fred walked up to the pipe and grabbed the pipe, one side of the coupling with one hand and the other pipe on the other side of the coupling in the other hand, was the last thing he remembered until they were loading him in the ambulance.
Come on now Mike. You know for a fact that this has been done this way for years and was completely complaint and correct. This is a new requirement you are trying to sell and that does NOT mean that the old way was "completely incorrect".
What do you think is safer - 10 homeowners with generators hooked up with transfer switches that don't switch the neutral OR 3 homeowners using a neutral switching transfer switch and 7 back feeding the panel with no transfer switch? This is the real world. We should have left the sleeping dog alone on this one.
-rick
I meant the UL requirements about switching neutrals.Portable generators were added to the 2002 code cycle in 702.10. The permission to not install a grounding electrode for portable generators that supply only equipment that is plugged into a receptacle on the generator was added to the 1999 code.
It has been around for more than 10 years. The only new part is the requirement that all 15, 20, and 30 amp receptacles be GFCI protected or should I say the 30 receptacle in new.
I meant the UL requirements about switching neutrals.
250.34 Portable and Vehicle-Mounted Generators.
(C) Grounded Conductor Bonding. A system conductor that is required to be grounded by 250.26 shall be connected to the generator frame where the generator is a component of a separately derived system.
Informational Note: For grounding portable generators supplying fixed wiring systems, see 250.30.
250.30 Grounding Separately Derived Alternating-Current Systems.
In addition to complying with 250.30(A) for grounded systems, or as provided in 250.30(B) for ungrounded systems, separately derived systems shall comply with 250.20, 250.21, 250.22, and 250.26.
Informational Note No. 1: An alternate ac power source, such as an on-site generator, is not a separately derived system if the grounded conductor is solidly interconnected to a service-supplied system grounded conductor. An example of such a situation is where alternate source transfer equipment does not include a switching action in the grounded conductor and allows it to remain solidly connected to the service-supplied grounded conductor when the alternate source is operational and supplying the load served.
Welcome- just because you are a carpenter does not mean you are unwanted here.Hey Everybody new here. I know this is not what you want to here but I'm a carpenter not an electrician but can do my own electrical work but also know my limitations. I have learned a lot from the electricians I have worked with in the past. I just got a Generac GP5500 to replace my Honda 1800 watt. I plan on doing the same thing that Ted M is doing at the start of this thread. I can handle this install and under stand what I'm doing. JW or anybody if you could please explain in simpler terms what this issue is with the grounding. Does it come down to the fact that HO's are not grounding the the generators at the provided grounding lug to earth? I have a sub panel in my detached garage where my gen will be run and I planned on running an 8ga. wire to the panel and attach it to the ground buss bar inside and when I need to use it I will attach the ground wire to the lug on the generator. I have read else where that this is acceptable or should the wire be connected to a copper grounding rod? And to Rich B what part of Jersey are you?
OK, all this you are talking about is about SDS and non-SDS. Where in all that does it say a neutral break transfer is required?
To the contrary, look at the Informational Note to 250.30. It says the exact opposite of what you are saying is the only "safe" way to do it.
Hey Everybody new here. I know this is not what you want to here but I'm a carpenter not an electrician but can do my own electrical work but also know my limitations. I have learned a lot from the electricians I have worked with in the past. I just got a Generac GP5500 to replace my Honda 1800 watt. I plan on doing the same thing that Ted M is doing at the start of this thread. I can handle this install and under stand what I'm doing. JW or anybody if you could please explain in simpler terms what this issue is with the grounding. Does it come down to the fact that HO's are not grounding the the generators at the provided grounding lug to earth? I have a sub panel in my detached garage where my gen will be run and I planned on running an 8ga. wire to the panel and attach it to the ground buss bar inside and when I need to use it I will attach the ground wire to the lug on the generator. I have read else where that this is acceptable or should the wire be connected to a copper grounding rod? And to Rich B what part of Jersey are you?
An on-site generator could also be a portable unit that is connected to the building electrical. 250.34 could apply just as much as 250.35.Pete read that note carefully. Where does it state that a stand-alone generator can be connected this way?
An onsite generator could be a generator that is the emergency power for a hospital or a nuclear power plant. It would also include generators outlined in 250.35.
250.34 is clear on the wording that a portable generator that has receptacles that supply the equipment being used to supply premises wiring must be installed as a SDS. In past editions this wording was in the body of the text. Over the years portable generators have been made where they don’t have receptacles but instead have lugs that the conductors land on and these have a place where the neutral bond can be lifted easily.
Using the NEC only we can understand a lot about UL Standards without having to buy the Standard.
Is it not through the grounding and bonding that makes a generator either a SDS or a non-SDS? This is why it is addressed in 250.
UL and the NEC have come forth with the requirement that all 15, 20, and 30 amp receptacles on portable generators must be GFCI protected on generators manufactured or remanufactured after January 1, 2011. In order to keep the GFCI from tripping the only way these can be connected to the premises wiring is by installing them as a SDS or voiding the listing by lifting the neutral bond from the frame of the generator which could cause someone to be hurt.
In saying that I meant that I can handle all of the physical wiring and install of parts but I'm trying to learn from people like you that do this for a living about NEC codes. Quite a few of my neighbors are looking to make hook ups but don't take the time to learn and read what is right and wrong with the way they will be hooking up their gens. So the more I can learn the more info I can pass on to others.
UL Standards are the guide line that manufacturers use when designing there product. A couple of examples would be UL Standard 1699 for arc fault devices, UL Standard 943 for ground fault circuit interrupters, UL Standard 2200 for generators and so on and so forth. UL Standard 943 states that a GFCI device must open between 4 and 6 milliamps. UL Standard 2200 states that generators that have devices mounted on the generator frame must have the Equipment Grounding Conductor as well as the neutral bonded to the frame.If it is a Standard why would you need to buy it ?
It is through the testing done by laboratories such as UL that keeps the items we buy safe and working like they are supposed to work. All of the National Recognized Testing Laboratories work hand in hand with the National Fire Protection Association and the Consumer Product Safety Commission to insure that the appliance and equipment we use daily are the safest they can be. This is an ongoing effort by all involved. It is not a rip off scheme to sell space to insert some type of label.UL Standard is not always the best or safest, it is a way to pay for and place stickers on many products, That may or may not meet NEC requirements.
Separately Derived System. This means that the neutral and equipment grounding is bonded in or at the generator or transformer. When the neutral is not bonded at the generator or transformer then it is a Non-Separately Derived SystemPlease bear with me as I'm trying to understand and learn here. OK SDS stands for?
It could be any of the aboveWhen you say GFCI protected I think of a outlet that you might see in a bathroom or kitchen. But when it comes to these gens they don't come with those kinds of outlets (or at least mine doesn't) so does that mean they are built into the circuit breakers that are next to the outlets (push button reset) or some how built into the electrical system?
This is awkward, but...
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