rusted flange, advice pls

[ajpa]

Hi! I am a ZERO on the handy scale but hubby is pretty handy but not so much with plumbing, just a background.

Anyway, our kid's bathroom had a leaky toilet so I took it off (I am so proud of myself) and now I can see that the flange is rusted. I guess it's a cast-iron one.

Is this something that can be fixed with those flange spanners or some kind of repair kit or will we have to replace the flange entirely?

(And if I replace, should I get cast-iron again or something else?)



Thanks for your advice!

-aj-

 

[Jadnashua]

With the white showing in there, are you sure it isn't pvc? The ring is steel. They do make a repair ring. If it is what I think it is (a pvc flange with a steel ring), that ring is actually fitting into a groove in the plastic flange. You can cut and manipulate the old ring out of there, and they make repair ones split with a hinge that would then lock into that groove. You then need to screw the new one down into the floor to keep it from coming back out and hold the toilet in place. Get one in stainless steel and use either stainless steel or brass screws to hold everything together.

Make sure that when you install the toilet, that it doesn't rock and that you can feel the wax compressing as you smush it down. If the toilet rocks, it WILL break the seal - the wax won't rebound like a rubber spacer would - it has little spring to it, so rocking is bad. You need to shim the toilet if it rocks - do this before you set it back down with the wax.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ajpa]

Yes, it is white -- so that means it's pvc and the rusted thing is a steel ring?

The toilet did rock before -- does that mean it needs shimming?
I guess we should check if the floor is level first before we try to put the toilet back?

The toilet I think is standard sized (it sayas "Sterling 1.6G/F) and the middle of the hole is 12 inches from the wall, so I just need to look for standard sized parts, right? (repair kit, wax ring etc)

THANKS!
-aj-

 

[Redwood]

It is indeed a PVC flange with a painted steel ring.

The repair ring that you want is available from several companies.

Raven Pruducts #BFR7900
or,
Oatey #42777 Moss Bay Replacement Flange

The Raven Products one is available at many plumbing supply houses, and the Oatey one is available from Lowes.

They are infact the same product which is a stainless steel replacement ring made specifically for when painted steel rings rust out. The painted steel ring fits into a groove on the PVC/ABS closet flange and secures the plastic section of the pipe in place. The rusted ring needs to be completely removed with out damaging the plastic section of the flange and the new 2 pc. stainless ring slipped into the locking groove and secured in place with either #12 brass or stainless steel wood screws long enough to grip in all the layers of floor and subfloor.

The fix will be better than the original!

How far below the finishe floor is that flange? You may need to install a spacer ring to raise the height.

By the way discard the closet bolts that come with the replacement ring!
I don't know why they would include yellow zinc plated steel closet bolts with the ring but they do...

You want to use 5/16" solid brass closet bolts not steel that looks like brass!

Use shims to prevent the toilet from rocking.

 

[ajpa]

How far below the finishe floor is that flange? You may need to install a spacer ring to raise the height.

By the way discard the closet bolts that come with the replacement ring!
I don't know why they would include yellow zinc plated steel closet bolts with the ring but they do...

You want to use 5/16" solid brass closet bolts not steel that looks like brass!

The rusted ring is the same height as the finished floor.

I just got the Oatey Moss Bay Flange from Lowes.
Also a KANT-LEAK reinforced wax ring kit

I'm confused with the screw /bolt part:

So did I need to get #12 brass or stainless steel wood screws too?
Or just 5/16" solid brass closet bolts?

THANKS!!!

 

[ajpa]

Oh, I get it. The closet bolt is to connect the toilet to the flange.
The screws are to connect the ring to the floor.
So I definitely need screws. D'oh!

 

[ajpa]

another question

what tool can I use to cut the rusted ring out?

 

[TedL]

A Dremel or other rotary tool is easiest. The crumbling, rusted flange may even yield to some side cutter pliers, like used to cut wire. I recommend you get the SS screws that Lowes has, 'cause they're less likely (than brass) to break or strip if the pilot hole is undersized.

 

[ajpa]

yet anotehr question

Am I going to need to silicone caulk or plumber's paste on the flange?

 

[Jadnashua]

No, you should not need any caulk for the flange. Depending on the toilet, you may need a thick wax ring. Measure how deep the horn is on the bottom of the toilet then figure the height of the wax ring to see if it will compress when you install the toilet. You're better off without the plastic horn in the wax ring. If you don't get things perfectly lined up, it will end up getting distorted and potentially making a blockage.

 

[ajpa]

I got a reinforced wax ring, kind of like this, except in a black & white box, G240 kit, I think it's the same except it comes with bolts

http://www.gunk.com/prod_photo.asp

 

[Gary Swart]

Your link takes me to a Gunk web site, not wax rings there. What you want to use is a wax ring that DOES NOT have a plastic funnel or horn sticking out on the bottom side. Wax rings come in 2 thicknesses, the standard for flanges that are set on top of the finished floor or perhaps level with the finished floor. The thick ring is for flanges that are recessed below the finished floor. As far as screws to anchor the flange to the sub flooring, I would suggest #12 stainless steel that are long enough to penetrate the sub floor. Brass flange bolts are fine, but brass screws are not strong enough to drive into thick wood. My final thought is that you might want to consider hiring a plumber for this job.

 

[ajpa]

Sorry about the link. Does this work?
http://www.gunk.com/product_images/LG_G239D.JPG

I think it's the wrong one, I should get the one without reinforcing plastic, correct? The flange is level with the tile, so I need the standard size. I will exchange it at lowes. I also got brass screws, I will get SS ones instead. How long exactly at a minimum should the screws be?

I can tell how my questions are not inspiring confidence that we will get this fixed but hubby is doing most of the actual work ... I do the errands (going to lowes, and asking questions). And this way we can see for ourselves if there is wood damage. Plus it is kind of fun in a strange weird way, at least for me, so far.

If it does prove beyond us we will end up calling a plumber but at least a lot of the prep work would be done, right? (I'm hoping that would mean the plumber would give us a discount, in case we did hire one).

The latest in the toilet saga is that the old ring is screwed in, and the screws are rusted, so my errand is to get screw extractors.

THANKS! Really appreciate the help!!!!

 

[Kingsotall]

If it does prove beyond us we will end up calling a plumber but at least a lot of the prep work would be done, right? (I'm hoping that would mean the plumber would give us a discount, in case we did hire one).

And if you tell him that a DIY plumbing a forum you went to said , yeah he might discount the work, he'll tell you what to do with your forum.

 

[Gary Swart]

The screws need to be long enough to go through the holes in the flange ring, through the finished flooring, and through or at least mostly through the sub floor. Can't tell you the exact length without knowing the thickness of the two floors, but if you measure, you can tell. Err on on the side of being too long.

Anything you do before a plumber might cut down on the bill, but as noted, don't expect it because of advise from this forum.

 

[ajpa]

Problem getting old ring out!

Hit a snag.
The old screws refuse to come out. They are embedded not in the wood directly but in some kind of column thingy (I don't know what it's called) that goes through the wood. They are stuck in there real good (cemented?).
There are 4 existing screws, one of each side of where the bolts need to go. So if the old screws don't come out I can't put the new ring in.

Is there a plan B?
How about the flange reinforcement ring in this article?
http://www.rd.com/advice-and-know-h...-to-fix-a-leaking-toilet/article107526-3.html

(The flange ring in that picture looks so much better, just slightly broken, than my horribly rusted one ...)

 

[Jadnashua]

If the floor is a concrete slab, they may have used lead anchors, or possibly plastic anchors. Those usually make it easier to unscrew the fastener. Anyway, if you've exhausted trying to unscrew them (people often try with the wrong size screwdriver which will quickly mess up the head and not give you the full torque capability), then you may need to drill the head off. Once you have the flange ring off, you may be able to use locking pliers to grab and unscrew the stub sticking out. If not, you may need an easyout. Depending on the repair ring you use, you may be able to just cut them off flush and put new screws in slighly moved new holes.

Sometimes, grinding a new screw slot will work, but don't mess up the pipe.

 

[ajpa]

It's not concrete slab -- the bathroom is on the second floor and it's the usual wood. The bathroom is tiled. The anchors(?) are definitely metal.

I think they used it to give height -- the top of the flange is 3/4 inch above the wood, so it is these metal anchors that are raising it high enough to be level with the tile. If we ever do get these screws out, we will need the same kind of anchor things then, right?
It seems structurally dubious to me ... isn't it putting a lot of pressure on 4 metal tubes?


Is an easy out the same as a screw extractor? That's what the hubby was trying yesterday; maybe it's a a technique thing.

If the floor is a concrete slab, they may have used lead anchors, or possibly plastic anchors. Those usually make it easier to unscrew the fastener. Anyway, if you've exhausted trying to unscrew them (people often try with the wrong size screwdriver which will quickly mess up the head and not give you the full torque capability), then you may need to drill the head off. Once you have the flange ring off, you may be able to use locking pliers to grab and unscrew the stub sticking out. If not, you may need an easyout. Depending on the repair ring you use, you may be able to just cut them off flush and put new screws in slighly moved new holes.

Sometimes, grinding a new screw slot will work, but don't mess up the pipe.

 

[Jadnashua]

If they just used spacers, they should be as strong as the ring itself if you used a screw in each hole. An easy out = screw extractor. But, if you don't have the right size and couldn't get it out, you may need to just drill the heads off.

Did the head just spin without loosening?

They might have used a bolt rather than a screw - there may be a nut on the bottom of the subfloor, so things might just turn without loosening . Then, the only way to get it off is tear up the ceiling or drill the head out. If you have a grinder, you could grind them out.