Bad Iron problem, what to do

I have a Bad Iron Bacteria problem. I just moved into a 4 year old house and the well water looks like tea when it comes out, very brown. The water was tested and showed over 6ppm of iron bacteria and low PH with the hardness at 2 grains. I tried Chlorinating it but it only went away for a day. I was told that does not work.

I have been talking to a couple local water "professionals" and one wants to sell me the unit that drops Bromine tablets in the well called Halosan at timed intervals for $1950
http://www.berrysystemsinc.com


And the other guy wants to sell me a Filter called the Sanitizer for $2450
http://www.water-right.com/residential/sanitizer/asc2/capacity1.htm

The first one makes sense because if the water is just filtered, then what happens when it gets real bad and clogs the pipes or pump?


Are there any other options out there or does anyone have any experience with either of these systems? The guys around here talk bad about any competitor saying their system doesn't work so I don't know who to believe.

The first thing you should do is educate yourself so you understand what the vendors are trying to sell you, how it is supposed to work, and whether it will really do the job you need done.

The site at the link below provides a good description of the various iron removal processes. The links at the top of the article take you to equipment they sell, but you don't need to buy anything from them. You can get the same equipment from others on this forum.

http://www.excelwater.com/eng/b2c/iron.php

Killing the bacteria with bromine will not eliminate the iron. You need some kind of total solution.

The second link in your post has some fine-print footnotes that tell you why their system may not work.

Application of the principles of free-enterprise and competition is often the best way for consumers to approach these problems.

Find some local vendors of water equipment, and invite them to offer complete solutions. They should do a water test and tell you what is in the water and what they propose to do for what price.

Educate yourself using the internet to determine whether their proposals are reasonable and will do the job. You can find the same equipment and pricing from numerous sites on the internet.

Check to see what equivalent systems cost if you buy them yourself. There are people on this forum who sell good equipment, and there are other vendors that you can find if you do a search.

There is value in having someone install their system and warrant its performance. If you understand the systems and competitive pricing you can determine what is the cost of their local service and its value to you.

Suppliers will often give you a better price if they know there is competition, but you must be sure you are getting equivalent or the same equipment.

Every local seller/installer should warrant the equipment and the performance of their system. That is a big part of why local suppliers charge more than equipment-sellers.

Then make a decision based on your needs, confidence in the suppliers, and what you are confident that you can do yourself.

You will get better value in the end if you take the time to educate yourself, and if you are not anxious to get something done immediately.

Every homeowner of complex equipment should learn what it does and how it works. You will save $thousands$ if you know enough not be completely reliant on what someone tells you.

Believe me, I have educated myself and I do understand how the systems are supposed to work (more than I wanted to know in 3 weeks ) What I have found is everyone is trying to sell filters, which do not fix the well, only filter the water, So what happens when the Iron Bacteria gets even worse and the pump or pipes clog up? The Pipes are already somewhat clogged as I have removed a couple to check them so I don't see how any filters will work in the long run by themselves.

The Bioshield is supposed to remove all of the Iron Bacteria eventually, maybe not the Iron itself which is why a Filter of some sort would still be required but it wouldn't have to work as hard since the water coming into it is mostly clean.

What I have is Ferrous Iron and Iron Bacteria, Slime on the Toilet tanks and stains on all fixtures and Low PH of 5 which it seems the Iron filters I have seen need at least 6 to work properly.
I have been told by a few local water people that Chlorination does not work but it seems to be the recommended way to go on the net?


With the 2 systems I mentioned, both have already come out and tested the water and their systems are what they recommended, The Bioshield guy said after 30 days to test again and see what type of additional filters were needed. I was hoping someone had some experience with them here.

What systems would you recommend?

Cue777 said:

I have a Bad Iron Bacteria problem. I just moved into a 4 year old house and the well water looks like tea when it comes out, very brown. The water was tested and showed over 6ppm of iron bacteria and low PH with the hardness at 2 grains. I tried Chlorinating it but it only went away for a day. I was told that does not work.

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I can't believe the water has been like this for 4 yrs.. Is there any type of water treatment there now?

Maybe you just need to run the well off until the water gets clear.

I don't know how anyone can test for IRB and state the result in ppm, so how much iron is in this water?

What is the rest of the water analysis data?

Shocking a well repeatedly can make the problem worse. A pellet dropper or other consistent chlorination in the well can cause problems but, if needed and not done, the well suffers a loss of production and then you need well cleaning and rehabilitation. Pellet droppers can cause pump, power cable, drop pipe and water quality problems but they usually work well.

Cue777 said:

I have been talking to a couple local water "professionals" and one wants to sell me the unit that drops Bromine tablets in the well called Halosan at timed intervals for $1950
http://www.berrysystemsinc.com

And the other guy wants to sell me a Filter called the Sanitizer for $2450
http://www.water-right.com/residential/sanitizer/asc2/capacity1.htm

The first one makes sense because if the water is just filtered, then what happens when it gets real bad and clogs the pipes or pump?

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The first one has no filter but they do have a small spin down type in one of their diagrams. You must prevent all of their equipment at the well casing from freezing. That may not be possible in most of the US.

The Sanitizer is a water softener. They do not kill anything, so that equipment is not going to work for iron or other bacteria control. The Sanitizer part creates chlorine during regeneration to sanitize the resin bed (actually their proprietary Zeolite Crystal), not the water going through the softener. If you went with that, it would be misapplied equipment. And you only have 2 gpg of hardness, so you don't need a softener.

Cue777 said:

Are there any other options out there or does anyone have any experience with either of these systems? The guys around here talk bad about any competitor saying their system doesn't work so I don't know who to believe.

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Yes. And there are other means of treatment but, when you kill IRB and oxidize iron and manganese (if any), the water will be rusty and you must filter the particulates out to clarify the water. That requires an automatically backwashed filter. If you use chlorine, you will want to remove that along with the particulates with the backwashed filter.

I would suggest my inline pellet chlorinator and its special mixing tank (equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank), both have a 21 gpm flow rate, and then a correctly sized for your peak demand flow rate special carbon backwashed filter using a Clack WS-1 control valve. That equipment installs after your pressure tank. Then to treat the well as needed; like once per year or two and I tell you how to do that correctly.

You can install that equipment yourself in about 4 hours, or hire a plumber or handyman for a few hundred dollars. Or I also sell pellet droppers that mount on your well casing; you would still need the filter because when you kill IRB and their cells rupture, that releases iron back into the water which can make it rusty or cause staining problems.

The test they did was just for Iron, it was over the max limit of his meter which goes to 5ppm so it is at least 6ppm. I don't know how the house was lived in before either, the only filter system is a hole house filter which is just the string type for sediment and it is in the crawlspace, there are also about a dozen or more used, brown filters laying there so it has clearly been a problem in the past.
It was a forclosure home and one of the water guys that came out said it looked like there may have been some type of water conditioner mounted in the storage shed, they more than likely took it with them since they took everything else.

I dont think it is going to clear up by running it, I have run it for 3-4 hours evrryday for the past 2 weeks, its gets somewhat clear then cloudy again.

If I installed a inline Chlorinator then what happens when the bacteria get out of hand in the well itself and clog the pump?

Iron is iron;ferrous or ferric, IRB is iron related bacteria and a whole lot different animal. So far you haven't given me anything to prove IRB, just an iron problem but... it is rare for a pump to be clogged up by IRB if you do some well maintenance periodically. And I tell my customer how what and when to do it.

The "whole house" filter could be making your problem worse and any water sample should have been taken before the filter. The 'filter' should be after the pressure tank too, not between the pump and the tank. If you ran water through that filter trying to clear up the well, I suggest removing the filter cartridge and doing it again. But be sure to not pull the well down too far or let the pump run dry.

When you stop running water, ferrous iron that came into the well with the recovery water can oxidize into ferric iron (rust) and that will discolor the water again. IRB does not act like that, it puts a clear to brown/black slime in the toilet tanks at and/or below the water line.

As I posted above, I do have slime in the toilet tanks and in the plumbing lines along with the brown water.

The whole house filter was removed once it became clogged and it is after the tank.

Want to come put one in my house in NC?

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

Cue777 said:

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

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My overall knowledge here is very limited, but I do have some experience with a well producing water similar to yours and trying to do something about it without having to spend a fortune I do not have.

What size is the "whole house" filter you have?

My water only looks like tea when I chlorinate it, but it is "crystal clear" (no turbidity at all) at the tap after passing through my pair of inexpensive filters (with a .5 micron cartridge at the end).

My suggestion is that you first get all the chunks out of the water as it enters the house, then chlorinate both the well and the plumbing in the house ... then turn your water heater up to at least 140* and see what happens. My sulfur odor still comes and goes a little from time to time, but I no longer have slime in my toilet tanks. We do have a water softener and we use the "iron fighting" formula of salt, but things are now just fine here without any expensive and/or high-maintenance equipment.

PS: Take a look here ...
http://www.fsi-international.com/PDF/catalog/x100tech.pdf
... and there is some discussion about one of those filters here ...
https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20926

Your low PH may be a problem in more ways than one. The low PH makes it harder for some Filters to remove the iron once oxidized. It may also be the source of your Iron Bacteria if you do in fact have it.

I don't recommend dropping anything into a Well continuously because of the same issues Gary mentioned. I could tell you some stories about Pellet Droppers.

I have sucessfully eradicated Iron Bacteria in many Wells over the years by Chlorinating the well once. In a few cases, more treatment was necessary and in a few, nothing helped. I would try the Chlorination a few times before I bought anything, then if the Chlorination helps, go about getting some new bids on simply getting rid of the Iron. I believe you will have to raise the PH first.

bob...

Cue777 said:

As I posted above, I do have slime in the toilet tanks and in the plumbing lines along with the brown water.

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OK, you have some slime in the toilet tanks, it may or may not be IRB. It may or not be a problem, or it may be MRB or SRB. None of which are harmful to pets or humans. I can't tell unless we speak.

You need a good water analysis and to post real numbers; your iron can be much more than 6 ppm.

You really don't want to drill a new well and get the same or worse water quality than you have now, and have less money to buy treatment equipment with, right?

You need to make up your mind if you want to be a DIYer or to be dependent on a dealer for installation and service, especially a dealer selling proprietary equipment that only he can get parts for.

I do not like and won't sell solution feeders. They take a lot of baby sitting and are difficult to keep in adjustment. That applies to whatever type pump is used or if you use peroxide or chlorine.

The vast majority of prospective customers do not want to mix solution every few weeks or sooner and play with their pump (dosage) in an attempt to get a solution feeder to work.

Most also want to be independent from any dealer and do their own installation and repair if needed.

The chlorination system I mentioned never fails to do the job and I buy it direct from the manufacturer. I also buy from Nelsen Corp. and they did not use the manufacturer's chlorinator, they used the impostor/knock off version or as Andy did, a solution feeder. Only one of my 60+/- customers with this system have had the distributor tube block up. He has had the system 4.5 years and that was because he left the chlorine run out. That happened just last month. He was stretching his 2.5 months between adding new pellets to 3 months. He spent about an hour to clean the distributor tube and came up with that as the problem because he was losing "pressure" (actually flow) and traced the cause to the mixing tank.

You can check out what my chlorination customers have to say about it on my forum and others. I have sold it for the last 12 years. It is a very simple system that takes up little space and requires the least maintenance of any iron, H2S, manganese or bacteria treatment system on the market. It is also the least expensive; delivered for $773.00 plus the correctly sized carbon filter.

Your low pH is perfect for oxidation of iron and killing bacteria of all kinds but, it really should be treated because it will be dissolving metals into your water and you run the risk of pinhole leaks in copper tubing and serious water damage problems and their expense.

Here is a picture of one installed by my customer (in NC IIRC). I don't like the box platform or the unions he used or the way he plumbed it with all the elbows and his unfinished drain line but, it is fine the way it is. He did it in about 2.5 hrs and it cost him about $1600 including delivery by UPS.

The maintenance is to flush some water out of the gray tank once per month for a few minutes and to clean the chlorinator and add pellets about every 2-3 months. That takes about 30-40 minutes. And they work every time as long as you keep pellets in them.

Andy CWS said:

Chlorinating the water and then watching the water turn color is normal as you have agitated the iron (or other elements) and taken it out of solution. It is still turbid if you can see the color, though. Maybe what you mean is that you don't see cloudiness of varying thickness.

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I do not normally chlorinate, and the turbidity (a mere milkiness) I have mentioned seems to be from clay. However, my .5 filters do come out brown even though the water does not actually look that way unless it is chlorinated (like when I recently filled my backyard pool).

Cue777 said:

Want to come put one in my house in NC?

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

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Drawing to fill an inside straight is probably better odds than getting rid of iron by drilling a new well. If there is iron in the aquifer you are probably going to get it with a new well.

Gary,
how do you adjust the feed rate on that chlorinator so you don't exhaust the carbon?What about the test on the discharge of the carbon filter, shouldn't it be less than one part chlorine so you dont degrade the softening resin?? A chemical feed pump allows you to adjust the rate and proper mixture is determined by the amount of iron in the water. So how does your chlorinator work? Does it magically figure that all out on its own? What kind of good water analysis,like maybe the ones from Lowe's that you don't mind working with? What's up with those plastic unions and the leaning tower of Pisa? Those plastic unions are probably the most problematic fittings that i have ever dealt with, never mind a home owner dealing with them. Those also look difficult to take apart, seeing the way you have them directly mounted on a piece of plywood. That whole thing looks and sounds very appeasing to a do it yourselfer because there is nothing very difficult about it but the question is, "How long will it work?" There is no such thing as an easy way out with chlorinating water, either your doing it right or your doing it wrong. Unless that setup has the right adjustments to it, it's garbage. But to a do it yourselfer, "it's magically delicious".

Sammy

I would think that it would be a softener and don't know why else you wouldn't install a softener after the carbon. A mixed bed filter with, Ag, calcite, corosex, and birm should have a softener after it too in order to reduce water hardness.

I once asked gary about any adjustments on that feeder and his reply was, " I don't know". So if there is one, it may be good as long as it's installed right.

sammy

sammyhydro11 said:

Gary,
how do you adjust the feed rate on that chlorinator so you don't exhaust the carbon?What about the test on the discharge of the carbon filter, shouldn't it be less than one part chlorine so you dont degrade the softening resin?? A chemical feed pump allows you to adjust the rate and proper mixture is determined by the amount of iron in the water. So how does your chlorinator work? Does it magically figure that all out on its own? What kind of good water analysis,like maybe the ones from Lowe's that you don't mind working with? What's up with those plastic unions and the leaning tower of Pisa? Those plastic unions are probably the most problematic fittings that i have ever dealt with, never mind a home owner dealing with them. Those also look difficult to take apart, seeing the way you have them directly mounted on a piece of plywood. That whole thing looks and sounds very appeasing to a do it yourselfer because there is nothing very difficult about it but the question is, "How long will it work?" There is no such thing as an easy way out with chlorinating water, either your doing it right or your doing it wrong. Unless that setup has the right adjustments to it, it's garbage. But to a do it yourselfer, "it's magically delicious".

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Sammy, my customers set the chlorine dose that I tell them to use and trust me, there is a way to adjust the volume of chlorine. On the install in my picture, it is not done with the knob you can see on the chlorinator; it is inoperable on his. In some cases the knob is operable, but that is rare and dictated by the application.

My customer installed the equipment in that picture and I've already given my comments on it in my other post... Yes he didn't follow instructions to 'plumb' the one tank or it is the angle of the picture that makes it look as if it is leaning.

If you use carbon after chlorination, there will be no chlorine left in the treated water. All carbon used to remove chlorine will eventually require replacement; usually measured by years. That equipment is used to remove bacteria, H2S gas and some iron.

Those plastic unions have never failed. But if you have problems using them, I suggest you read and follow the directions. As to taking things apart, the chlorinator comes off line with the unions and the by-pass valve on the filter control valve provides an extremely easy way to do it.

I have sold the chlorinator and mixing tank for 10 years. It is simple, inexpensive and works every time and for many years with the least maintenance of any chlorination system. People need to beware that the knock off version does not work very well at all and it is not what I sell. Externally they look very much alike but the knock off has a dark gray lid; that used to be white.

Andy CWS said:

Sammy,
I don't see a softener unless it is out of sight. That is most likely a backwashing filter using a multi-media bed. I think there is a small dial on the pellet feeder that is adjusted to program how many pellets goes into it at a give rate.

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Yes there is no softener. Yes it is a filter, but it is a special carbon filter.

On that make/model of chlorinator, the knob is inoperable. I also sell a model that the knob does operate. They look identical. Once the pellets are added, they don't go anywhere else, they dissolve.

Andy CWS said:

I don't see a test valve after the filter telling whether the chlorine is adjusted properly. I have never used one of these pellet feeders. Our company had installed a few well-cap pellet feeders, but these were problematic and we have found better ways to handle chlorination systems.

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That is not a "pellet feeder".

You don't see a "test valve" because it isn't needed in the plumbing.

I've never had any problems with any well casing installed pellet droppers I've sold except for one at a large campground with 3 wells. Their maintenance man made and installed a large heavy wooden box over it and didn't leave any ventilation and the sun provided heat caused a part on the motor to fail.

To my knowledge, all commercial establishments with their own water source, in all US States are required to have quarterly water tests done. I have installed a lot of equipment in places where those tests were required. But UV is never required after chlorination; especially when the required residual of .5 to 1.5 mg/l or ppm of free chlorine is adhered to and/or after installation of the chlorination no check samples fail.

I can attest that the setup mentioned by Gary works good. I've been using it since January with great results.

Definitly plumb in valves that connect to drains as it makes adding pellets easier.

I've been adding pellets every 2 months.

Tim

Andy CWS said:

I've never put UV after chlorination, either. I'm not sure why that would be done or suggested.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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OH... but you said you did. Here is what I was replying to.

Andy CWS said:

This was another system for a campgrounds that needed chlorination. We also softened the water and disinfected with a Hallett UV. This needed to be certifiec by the health department and has spot inspections.


Andy Christensen, CWS-II

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You using UV after chlorination.

Ding... Ding! LOL