I bought a house about 3 years ago on a piece of property that was split up between 2 houses and 1 well; a family lived in both houses, so when they sold it, they split it up into 2 properties, and the well stayed with one and a new well was drilled for ours. Knowing how expensive a 900 foot well is to have installed, it was a selling feature of the home that the well was new and should last a long time before service should be needed. Here we are just over 3 years later and it looks like the down pipe is probably leaking, because the flow has slowed from 10 GPM to less than 1 GPM (filling up a storage tank) and the pipe doesn't hold prime; these clues lead me to believe the down pipe is at fault. The installer who is local who installed the well is coming out to look at it today. My question: I don't know the industry very well, and he was pretty vague when I asked him (seemed nice, don't misunderstand me) but is it typical to be held accountable (as in, warranty) for a pipe that has only lasted 3 years? Is this something I should expect to pay out of pocket to have fixed or should he honor his work? I'm not trying to scam anyone, I just also don't want to be scammed myself.
Young well leaking
- Thread starter RobertN
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Most installers offer a five year warranty. And if it is something like he just forgot to tape up the galvanized fitting that screwed into a brass or Stainless check valve at the pump, he should make that good. But it is way down in the well and you really won't know what the problem is until you pull it up and have a look.
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Craigpump
In the Trades
Five yrs on pumps, seven yrs on tanks (Well X Trol), one year on other parts and labor.
That said he should be able to diagnose the problem rather quickly.
That said he should be able to diagnose the problem rather quickly.
Texas Wellman
In the Trades
Agree with craigpump.
It's also the duty of the homeowner to keep up with the maintenance such as checking the air in the tank and making sure everything is working properly as it should.
I bought a $40,000 truck and it has a 3 year warranty (36K miles). Something went out in year 4 and it cost me $1800 to fix, Ford said sorry, out of warranty. Your installer is only as good as his parts/suppliers and even then part of the responsibility is up to the homeowner.
It's also the duty of the homeowner to keep up with the maintenance such as checking the air in the tank and making sure everything is working properly as it should.
I bought a $40,000 truck and it has a 3 year warranty (36K miles). Something went out in year 4 and it cost me $1800 to fix, Ford said sorry, out of warranty. Your installer is only as good as his parts/suppliers and even then part of the responsibility is up to the homeowner.
Thanks for the feedback! Like I said, I just am not familiar with the industry; i don't want to screw anyone, just don't want to get screwed either. He said it seems like the leak is probably within the first 100-200 feet, so they will be back in the morning to yank the pipe and fix the leak. Said it'd be probably 200-300 dollars, which I think seems fair. As an automotive mechanic I understand the value of time, knowledge and tools, and will gladly pay the wellman for his. Thanks again for the feedback, this community is always pretty helpful
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So they came by the other day to pull it up and find the leak, and when I went out there, much to my surprise, had pulled up all the pipe and the pump (I thought he was just going to pull up to the point of the leak, not all 650ft of pipe!). When I asked him why he pulled the pump out, he said the check valve was in fact bad, so it made it impossible to find the leak without the pump holding the water. So he screwed on a new valve, then eventually found a leak at a joint on the galvanized pipe. It looks like a hole developed on the threads of the galvanized pipe. I know that galvanic action is "a thing" and he brushed it off as "it just kinda happens". I didn't get a chance to talk to him after the fact, but I'd like to know if there is anything that can be done to prevent this. Seems like that pipe should last more than 3 1/2 years, and is this going to be a recurring issue? He was very fair with pricing but I don't want to constantly be shelling out 500 bucks every year or 2 over this! Is this a fluke? He did say it may be related to the fact that I have a chlorinator installed, but I thought galvanized pipe was resistant to chlorine.
Craigpump
In the Trades
New galvanized pipe isn't as good as it used to be. The threads are plain steel with no galvanized coating so that's where it will fail the quickest. Some say that wrapping electrical tape over the threads and couplings will help, but you're not going to pull it all out again to tape every joint.
We use sch 80 PVC whenever possible, I'll set it 700' with a 1.5hp pump. Others are braver than me and will go deeper...
We use sch 80 PVC whenever possible, I'll set it 700' with a 1.5hp pump. Others are braver than me and will go deeper...
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
Craigpump, you're braver than me. I use North American's drop pipe with stainless couplers, when ever I can. I buy the 1 1/4 sch 120, a lift at a time, 2,000 feet. If I'm having to go past 600 ft usually I'm installing a 3 to 5 hp pump. Your 1 1/2 hp pump is down to about 2 1/2 gpm at 700 ft. Most of my customers need 10-20 gpm. I've one job pending, a 5 hp on 1 1/4" galvanized, set 700 ft, 580 swl. They 5 hp pump will deliver 16-20 gpm at 50 psi, under those conditions. I also quoted the customer a 3 hp. It would have delivered 8 1/2 to 10 gpm. A 2 hp is 4-6 gpm and a 1 1/2 hp is only going to produce 2.5 - 4 gpm.
Would I prefer to set that 5 hp on PVC, of course. NA's recommended max depth for 1 1/4" is 450 feet and 2 hp maximum. However I'm not willing to go deeper with it than North American's recommendations. Why? Because if I exceed their recommended depth, even though it will probably work, any warranty is on me, because I have exceeded the mfgr's recommendations. Can I rechip my Ram pickup and get more power? Sure, but do I still have a warranty? Uh, NO!
https://www.northamericanpipe.com/s...02_0816_CertaLok-KwikSet-ThreadedDropPipe.pdf
Incidentally, I see that they have a worksheet for the 2" and larger pipe. I just ran it thru a scenario of a 20 hp pump set at 400 ft. It exceeded the weight capacity for 2" but 3" was ok. It also calculates how much the PVC pipe will stretch when filled with water. In this scenario., the 2" was stretching about 15" and the 3" about 12 inches. I never have used the certa-loc pipe. I asked my Preferred Pump Branch about it once. They had brought some in. It sat in the yard a year and a half with no sales. They shipped it to a California branch. If I wanted some I would have to buy a whole lift of it.
I use 1" sch 80 PVC as inside airline when I'm reverse circulation drilling. I KNOW from experience that 800 ft of 1" sch 80 will stretch over 6 ft with 6000 lbs of pull on it. You might have to pull repeatedly on it for 15-30 minutes at that pull, before it will break!
Would I prefer to set that 5 hp on PVC, of course. NA's recommended max depth for 1 1/4" is 450 feet and 2 hp maximum. However I'm not willing to go deeper with it than North American's recommendations. Why? Because if I exceed their recommended depth, even though it will probably work, any warranty is on me, because I have exceeded the mfgr's recommendations. Can I rechip my Ram pickup and get more power? Sure, but do I still have a warranty? Uh, NO!
https://www.northamericanpipe.com/s...02_0816_CertaLok-KwikSet-ThreadedDropPipe.pdf
Incidentally, I see that they have a worksheet for the 2" and larger pipe. I just ran it thru a scenario of a 20 hp pump set at 400 ft. It exceeded the weight capacity for 2" but 3" was ok. It also calculates how much the PVC pipe will stretch when filled with water. In this scenario., the 2" was stretching about 15" and the 3" about 12 inches. I never have used the certa-loc pipe. I asked my Preferred Pump Branch about it once. They had brought some in. It sat in the yard a year and a half with no sales. They shipped it to a California branch. If I wanted some I would have to buy a whole lift of it.
I use 1" sch 80 PVC as inside airline when I'm reverse circulation drilling. I KNOW from experience that 800 ft of 1" sch 80 will stretch over 6 ft with 6000 lbs of pull on it. You might have to pull repeatedly on it for 15-30 minutes at that pull, before it will break!
Craigpump
In the Trades
Boyce, our static levels are almost always within 100' of surface, 99.9% of our work is domestic, so we can get away with PVC. Anything past 700' we install galvanized.
VAWellDriller
Active Member
Lets go completely off-topic for a minute...I'm curious why you would have airline so deep when drilling reverse? I thought you only needed it like 100' down or so to get the fluid moving? What size drill pipe are you running? I've never drilled reverse, have wanted to a few times but I'm not setup for it.
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
When most drillers think of reverse circulation drilling, they're assuming you're talking about flooded reverse circulation. And that is the most common method. The borehole is kept full of water to the surface at all times to create a hydrostatic head pressure on the formation to keep it from collapsing. you should have at least 10 feet of positive head pressure on the formation. I've seen some instances where fill was brought in to raise the drill above grade if the static water level was less than 10 feet. The drill rod is either dual wall, or large diameter with an inside airline.
You also hear about reverse circulation drilling in the mineral exploration field. That is almost exclusively dual wall drill pipe and the hole is not flooded with water. The formation is stable and RC is used to get accurate soil sampling information.
Back to flooded reverse. Many times an earth pit is dug beside the well and a conductor pipe is dug in between the pond and the borehole. As drilling proceeds, air is introduced thru the airline inside the drill rod. It aereates the fluid and it rises up the drill rod and is the arrested fluid and cuttings are dumped into the pit. The cuttings settle out in the pit and the fluid is free to gravity flow back into the borehole and keep it full. Normally a source of make up water is needed. It can be difficult to get the reverse circulation started until you are 80 feet deep or more. So initially a pump suction might be hooked to the Kelly hose to suck the water up the drill rod. The GEFCO Jed-a rig uses a jet educator system so that the cuttings don't go thru the pump and doesn't need an airline.
6" flanged or threaded drill pipe is commonly used and will circulate about 500 gallons per minute. Rocks 2 to 3 inches in diameter can be sucked up thru this system. Some drillers will even use 8" diameter pipe. Usually no more than 200 ft of airline is run in this type of drilling, so that a high pressure compressor is not needed. If dual wall drill pipe is used, commonly it is 7" OD with the inner tube having A 4" ID. I've usually got about 200 gpm circulation with this method. This is a very common type of drilling in sedimentary formations in Nebraska and California.
Here in Washington, we have some sedimentary formations where the flooded reverse drilling is used. We also do a type of drilling that would probably be better described at air-assist reverse circulation. We are drilling igneous formations, specifically basalt and don't require a hydrostatic head to keep the hole open. We will flood the hole to get submergance for the airline until we hit a water bearing formation. Then we need enough airline in the hole to get submergance below the static water table. If the swl is 300 ft, we want 500 ft or more of airline. If the static is 600 ft, I want 800 or more feet of airline. We don't need to circulate a large volume of water, because we are bringing up cutting that have been ground up by the bit. I will use 4 1/2" bottleneck pipe and circulate 50-90 gpm. We are in essence vacuuming the cuttings out of the hole. If I pick up off bottom, I have clean water coming out of the hole within a couple of minutes.
Now let's say I've drilled and cased a 16" hole to 1,000 feet, and I'm reducing to 12" now. I could run 2 or 3 900/350 air compressors and burn 60+ gallons of diesel per hour along with a 1/2 bbl of foam per day. Or I could run a 750/300 compressor at an idle burning less than 10 gallons per hour and use no foam. The well I'm on now I just tripped out the down hole hammer at 730 ft. I was blowing about 1,000 gpm out of the hole and the hammer was watered out. I'm going back in with a 12 1/4" tricone and will reverse another 200 ft of hole. If I can hammer drill I run straight air, thou I've done RC hammer Drilling successfully. After the hammer is watered out and I have to use a roller bit, I use the air-assist reverse.
You also hear about reverse circulation drilling in the mineral exploration field. That is almost exclusively dual wall drill pipe and the hole is not flooded with water. The formation is stable and RC is used to get accurate soil sampling information.
Back to flooded reverse. Many times an earth pit is dug beside the well and a conductor pipe is dug in between the pond and the borehole. As drilling proceeds, air is introduced thru the airline inside the drill rod. It aereates the fluid and it rises up the drill rod and is the arrested fluid and cuttings are dumped into the pit. The cuttings settle out in the pit and the fluid is free to gravity flow back into the borehole and keep it full. Normally a source of make up water is needed. It can be difficult to get the reverse circulation started until you are 80 feet deep or more. So initially a pump suction might be hooked to the Kelly hose to suck the water up the drill rod. The GEFCO Jed-a rig uses a jet educator system so that the cuttings don't go thru the pump and doesn't need an airline.
6" flanged or threaded drill pipe is commonly used and will circulate about 500 gallons per minute. Rocks 2 to 3 inches in diameter can be sucked up thru this system. Some drillers will even use 8" diameter pipe. Usually no more than 200 ft of airline is run in this type of drilling, so that a high pressure compressor is not needed. If dual wall drill pipe is used, commonly it is 7" OD with the inner tube having A 4" ID. I've usually got about 200 gpm circulation with this method. This is a very common type of drilling in sedimentary formations in Nebraska and California.
Here in Washington, we have some sedimentary formations where the flooded reverse drilling is used. We also do a type of drilling that would probably be better described at air-assist reverse circulation. We are drilling igneous formations, specifically basalt and don't require a hydrostatic head to keep the hole open. We will flood the hole to get submergance for the airline until we hit a water bearing formation. Then we need enough airline in the hole to get submergance below the static water table. If the swl is 300 ft, we want 500 ft or more of airline. If the static is 600 ft, I want 800 or more feet of airline. We don't need to circulate a large volume of water, because we are bringing up cutting that have been ground up by the bit. I will use 4 1/2" bottleneck pipe and circulate 50-90 gpm. We are in essence vacuuming the cuttings out of the hole. If I pick up off bottom, I have clean water coming out of the hole within a couple of minutes.
Now let's say I've drilled and cased a 16" hole to 1,000 feet, and I'm reducing to 12" now. I could run 2 or 3 900/350 air compressors and burn 60+ gallons of diesel per hour along with a 1/2 bbl of foam per day. Or I could run a 750/300 compressor at an idle burning less than 10 gallons per hour and use no foam. The well I'm on now I just tripped out the down hole hammer at 730 ft. I was blowing about 1,000 gpm out of the hole and the hammer was watered out. I'm going back in with a 12 1/4" tricone and will reverse another 200 ft of hole. If I can hammer drill I run straight air, thou I've done RC hammer Drilling successfully. After the hammer is watered out and I have to use a roller bit, I use the air-assist reverse.
Interesting stuff! I get a kick out of people who think anybody with a post hole digger can make a well. It takes many years and a LOT of expense to learn that kind of stuff. And you are not going to learn it from a book. That is unless Boyce decides to keep writing until it becomes a book?
It might not be a big seller, but a few hundred drillers would probably carry it around like their Bible.
It might not be a big seller, but a few hundred drillers would probably carry it around like their Bible.
VAWellDriller
Active Member
I was thinking of the flooded setup for reverse, so I was on the right track with a short airline. I drill all coastal plain sediments; very unstable and have to use mud.....just starting to get into larger work and the reverse would be so much faster at cleaning the hole. I am drilling straight mud rotary, 4.5" flush rods, 3.5" IF joint, with a 5.5 x 8 gardner denver high speed setup.
So you tripped out of hole with watered out hammer to go another 200'....you already got 1000, how much water are you looking for?
So you tripped out of hole with watered out hammer to go another 200'....you already got 1000, how much water are you looking for?
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
The customer is hoping for 2,500 gpm. There are other wells in the area that will do that. I reamed the pump chamber deeper and installed a new liner on one about a mile away this spring. They pumped 2,500 gpm all season long.
Craigpump
In the Trades
Require a special permit for that yield?
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
My apologies to the original poster, we've really hijacked this thread.
Yes, in Washington state, use of ground water for household use, non commercial irrigation of 1/2 Acres or less, and commercial uses, all with a maximum quantity of 5,000 gallons per day are exempt from requiring a water right permit. Also stock watering water in unlimited quantities are exempt from requiring a water right. Uses in excess of this require a water right that is obtained from the Dept of Ecology. That's the way the law reads.
However the Dept of Ecology is for all practical purposes no longer issuing new water right permits. There are many water basins that are closed to any new uses of water including exempt wells.
And in December, there was a Washington State Supreme Court Ruling, referred to as the "Hirst" decision that has put the entire exempt well allowance into a sort of Limbo. A county planning department now is required to make the determination not only is water is physically available, but that it is legally available and doesn't impair any senior water right holder, before they can issue a building permit.
We have some counties that have issued moratoriums on well drilling, some that are ignoring this ruling, and everything in between. One count is requiring a hydrologists opinion whether a well might affect a neighbor's well if it less than 500 ft away. The state legislature is in session and there are between 5 and 12 bills presently in committee to try to solve this situation. Our state association is very involved in this. We expect at least one bill to pass the house and senate and go to the governer to be signed. We don't hold much hope that he will sign it.
Remember I'm in the state that has sued the President and obtained the TRO on the President's Travel Order. He's also proposed a 20% increase in the State's budget, largely funded by a carbon tax.
Yes, in Washington state, use of ground water for household use, non commercial irrigation of 1/2 Acres or less, and commercial uses, all with a maximum quantity of 5,000 gallons per day are exempt from requiring a water right permit. Also stock watering water in unlimited quantities are exempt from requiring a water right. Uses in excess of this require a water right that is obtained from the Dept of Ecology. That's the way the law reads.
However the Dept of Ecology is for all practical purposes no longer issuing new water right permits. There are many water basins that are closed to any new uses of water including exempt wells.
And in December, there was a Washington State Supreme Court Ruling, referred to as the "Hirst" decision that has put the entire exempt well allowance into a sort of Limbo. A county planning department now is required to make the determination not only is water is physically available, but that it is legally available and doesn't impair any senior water right holder, before they can issue a building permit.
We have some counties that have issued moratoriums on well drilling, some that are ignoring this ruling, and everything in between. One count is requiring a hydrologists opinion whether a well might affect a neighbor's well if it less than 500 ft away. The state legislature is in session and there are between 5 and 12 bills presently in committee to try to solve this situation. Our state association is very involved in this. We expect at least one bill to pass the house and senate and go to the governer to be signed. We don't hold much hope that he will sign it.
Remember I'm in the state that has sued the President and obtained the TRO on the President's Travel Order. He's also proposed a 20% increase in the State's budget, largely funded by a carbon tax.
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