Working with propane and natural gas questions

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Terry

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Many homeowners have questions about working with gas.

Gas is that product that heats homes and your water.

Gas is flammable, and in some cases explosive.

The plumbing code books go into great detail about the requirements when working with it. There needs to be adequate ventilation, exhaust dispersal of spent gas, protection of accidental ignition, and protection of piping.

Many gas companies won't hook up the gas meter until they see a permit that has been passed and signed by a local plumbing inspector.
Some States only allow licensed contractors to pull permits and to do the work. A homeowner would not be able to get a permit for the gas work. They view this as too critical a danger to allow just anyone to work with it. There are even many plumbing contractors that decide not to work with gas, or limit their exposure and liability because of the dangers.

There are many stories of bad things happening when you involve gas.

Since gas can explode with vapors, codes have been in place to either raise gas appliances in garages, or to have flame trap appliances.
Gas can lay on the ground, and when the gas gets high enough, be ignited by the pilot light of a furnace or water heater.
There was even a story of a painter using lacquer thinner in a garage that was ignited by the spark from plugging in a cord to the wall. The explosion blew him through the garage door.

A similar story about propane happened one day to me.
I was in Hanford California, picking up a motor home that had just been worked on. The tanks were filled before I left the lot.
I told the guy filling the tank, that there was a bad gas leak, and that he needed to look at it. He said not to worry,
But I was worried.
I was supposed to sleep in it that night, but with the gas smell, there was going to be no way I would.
Propane gas is heavier than air. It will lay on the ground, or fill a ditch or hole in the ground, until ready to be ignited.
My FIL wanted to show me how safe it would be, by lighting up the stove burners. My BIL was helping, two guys lighting up burners with a gas leak in the motor home.
Nobody likes to believe plumbers.
I started backing out of there, and was a little behind my 6'-4" 275 pound BIL, when someone opened up the oven door.
There was a loud explosion and flames blew by him, missing me in the shadow.
I pulled the two stunned men out, turned off the gas at the tank, and went over to the garden hose, hooked it up and became a fire fighter that day.
$6,000 damage to the motor home, and that was only because it was parked next to the house with a handy garden hose.
If the explosion had happened while driving, it could have been much worse.
My brother in law, his hair was all curly from being singed by the heat.
It does happen,

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NHmaster

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To service or install gas piping and equipment in the State of New Hampshire we are required to hold as many as 6 differing licenses. If I do natural gas piping I must first pull a permit with the city to do the work and then have it tested by the city inspector and then the gas utility inspector. They are separate organizations. We are not allowed to turn on the gas at the meter at all. The gas company alone controls this. If I'm doing new gas piping to a new gas appliance the gas company needs to see my city permit, and my passed pressure test results. Then they re-test and turn the gas on. They fire and test the new equipment and leave me the paperwork. Gas companies are very very carefull about liability issues (I wonder why?) No matter how many jobs I've done and how well I know the inspector they always re-test and certify just to cover their butts. And in the process it covers mine also.
 

Redwood

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A pile of smoldering toothpicks on an empty lot is not a good thing!
Gas piping should always be installed by a licensed plumber and be inspected.

Gas the energy source that can make your house sneeze!
One second you own a nice home...
The next second you own a vacant lot with a smoldering pile of toothpicks!

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This was Saint Mary's Ukrainian Catholic Church Before...

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And after the LPG Explosion Colchester CT.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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True that propane hides in low spots, lets not ignore the danger of methane/NG either.
The smallest leak left behind can add up to a massive explosion once the cloud reaches a pilot. light switch or any spark...even a static charge will ignite it.
Concealed in walls or ceilings are even more deadly, no way to vent or disperse it as it grows.
 

BigLou

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I think we need to stop protecting people from them selves. If a DIY is dumb enough to put them selves and their familys well being at risk we should let them. They should still be required to pull permits and get inspected maybe even at an additional cost. But if they want to put thier family and thier home on the line why not let them ?

Me personally, you could not pay me enough to ever run a gas line in my own home or anybody elses for that matter. Way to much at risk if you ask me

NHMASTER
what do you think of the NH's motorcycle helmet rules ?


Lou
 

Jadnashua

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If we didn't have to support the brain dead lump for years, and absorb their medical costs in the pool, I'd say let them scramble their brains; otherwise, wear a helmet!

I was told (don't know if it is true) that in Germany, if you leave something out in the car, the car is broken into, that your insurance won't pay. Only if it was concealed in say the trunk AND the car was locked would it be covered. People should take ownership of their responsibilities and manage the risks they are able to absorb - you cause the problem, you pay the costs.
 

NHmaster

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Big Lou, The problem with a home owner blowing his house up is all the money is costs for the police, fire department, ambulances ect. Not to mention possibly hurting innocent bystanders. I won't get into it with you, because hopfully yours was a flippant comment made in jest. If not Google Amelia's law and read what happens to innocent children when bone heads work on gas.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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I think we need to stop protecting people from them selves. If a DIY is dumb enough to put them selves and their familys well being at risk we should let them. They should still be required to pull permits and get inspected maybe even at an additional cost. But if they want to put thier family and thier home on the line why not let them ?

Me personally, you could not pay me enough to ever run a gas line in my own home or anybody elses for that matter. Way to much at risk if you ask me

NHMASTER
what do you think of the NH's motorcycle helmet rules ?


Lou
What about the condo owner upstairs from you?

What about the home that exploded while there were guests over?

What about the homeowner who was given the impression that gas work was relatively easy and harmless to do by a total stranger who kills his 2 year old in her sleep from co exposure?

I understand the purpose of this site, to help homeowner do their own work, where code accepts that.

But to openly butt heads with pro's who are only trying to save a life, or keep someone from making a potentially life altering financial mistake...thats not what this site is for.

This isn't the "Lets gang up on plumbers" website, at least not last I checked.

All plumbers are not evil money grubbing scum, not all of 'em.

Some of us truly beleive in our moto - "Protecting the health of the nation".
 
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BigLou

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What about the condo owner upstairs from you?

Thats multi family I was refering strictly to single family dwellings.

What about the home that exploded while there were guests over?
what about the drunk driver who hits them on the way home? Life is dangerous sorry

What about the homeowner who was given the impression that gas work was relatively easy and harmless to do by a total stranger who kills his 2 year old in her sleep from co exposure?
Happens all the time with many other aspects of the building trades and life in general. People think deck building is easy yet people are hurt and die every year when poorly constructed decks fall down. I don't see anybody saying it should be illegal to build your own deck. Many fires spead and kill people each year because of people thinking that its easy to remodel your own home and they create chases to spread the fire in the process. Lots of car accidents are caused by poorly maintained cars so maybe we should license all mechanics and outlaw working on your own car. poorly installed breaks could be deadly.
I understand the purpose of this site, to help homeowner do their own work, where code accepts that.
I have a problem with a code that helps protect an industry more then it protects the people. I always try to help out Home Owners even if that means telling them they are in over thier head and need to hire a pro.

But to openly butt heads with pro's who are only trying to save a life, or keep someone from making a potentially life altering financial mistake...thats not what this site is for.
I am not butting heads with any pro on this thread at least thats not my intention. I am a firm believer in personal rights freedoms and liberties. I think its ALWAYS advisable to hire a pro to run gas lines. I don't however think we need the GOVT to mandate it. I feel this way about many things well beyond building construction.

This isn't the "Lets gang up on plumbers" website, at least not last I checked.

All plumbers are not evil money grubbing scum, not all of 'em.

Some of us truly beleive in our moto - "Protecting the health of the nation".
No I don't think it is either besides who other then me is willing to disagree with any of you?. One of my best friends is a plumber and I hold him and his step farther and his father and his uncle(all plumbers) in high regard as decent and honest people.

My statements have less to do with being anti plumber and more to do with being pro freedom.

Lou
 

GrumpyPlumber

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This "meaningful debate" is the very heart of why I stopped coming to this site like I used to.

The "plumbers are our enemy" routine gets old.

It's ironic that some will come here for free advice, often to avoid paying a plumber, then put those very plumbers down or argue to rediculous extents over simple fact.

Lou, you're all over the place and I haven't time right now to follow you down each dead end you run down.

The thread was started by the forum owner for good reason.

The fact is that codes are in place for good reason, Dr Kevorkian was found wrong, you're not entitled to bring harm to others, nor even yourself.

Thats just the way our society works, sue them...take this argument to the government.

Before this discussion gets to the right and wrong of why bomb makers should be allowed to make bombs in the privacy of their own homes, I think I'll get back to more productive things.
 

BigLou

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Grumpy,
so some one disagrees with you and offers a different view point and you stop comming to the site. Thats a sad state of affiars if you want to take you ball and go home.

Plumber are not my enemys. I would be lost in construction with out my plumbers they are essential to a well built and safe home.

I agree its odd how people will put plumbers down, then ask those same plumbers for help so they don't have to pay one. I think the most helpful thing this or any other site can do is tell some one when they are in over their head and going to hurt them self or some one else.

I disagree with the codes and why they are in place. its a valid view point DEAL WITH IT.

I think we can all agree that making bombs in your basement is a little different from wiring your own dryer or hooking up your own hot water heater that you bought at the home depot.

Lou
 

Terry

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The reason you can drink the water in the US, is because "Government" stepped in and licensed plumbers. They created a system of codes to implement piping in homes and offices to prevent cross contamination.

This has saved millions of lives, and is the driving force in our economy.
You must not have ever left the country for you to think that good clean safe water just happens. It's only government intervention that has provided for that.

In Chicago, when a sizable percentage of the population "died" one year during a storm runoff that contaminated the public water supply, they reworked the plumbing system.

It didn't matter how good "your" plumbing had been, since all water is shared, if the neighbor or the city at large is contaminated, you all are contaminated.

That is what it's like in most of the world.
And it has been a struggle here to keep it that way, because of ignorance.

I hear plenty of people say, it's only my house, and my family, but the piping is all connected. When main lines are worked on, the water siphons back into the main, and gets redistributed to the neighbors houses.
It's not as simple as the average home owner thinks.

When I was in Belize, I didn't see any correct plumbing. And the plumbing is all on the outside of the homes.
They could surely use government intervention.
 
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GrumpyPlumber

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The reason you can drink the water in the US, is because "Government" stepped in and licensed plumbers. They created a system of codes to implement piping in homes and offices to prevent cross contamination.

This has saved millions of lives, and is the driving force in our economy.
You must not have ever left the country for you to think that good clean safe water just happens. It's only government intervention that has provided for that.

In Chicago, when a sizable percentage of the population "died" one year during a storm runoff that contaminated the public water supply, they reworked the plumbing system.

It didn't matter how good "your" plumbing had been, since all water is shared, if the neighbor or the city at large is contaminated, you all are contaminated.

That is what it's like in most of the world.
And it has been a struggle here to keep it that way, because of ignorance.

I hear plenty of people say, it's only my house, and my family, but the piping is all connected. When main lines are worked on, the water siphons back into the main, and gets redistributed to the neighbors houses.
It's not as simple as the average home owner thinks.

When I was in Belize, I didn't see any correct plumbing. And the plumbing is all on the outside of the homes.
They could surely use government intervention.


Thank you.
One of the most important seperations between us and the third world is indoor plumbing.
Look at many third world countries where Cholera, Dysentary and a plethors of other widespread diseases & parasites are caused by a lack of sanitary plumbing and clean potable water.

I rest assured that the funeral home down the road from me isn't backflowing the nasty stuff from the embalming process into what I boil my spaghetti in, nor is my neighbors boiler.
I thank local code enforcement for keeping an eye on those things.

I can relax in the winter knowing the house 50 feet away won't blow up and take mine with it.
 

Jadnashua

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Terry, www.steripen.com . It uses UV light. Does about a liter in around 60-seconds. Has a counter in it so once the light output is likely to approach the end of useful life, it stops working. You need to send it back in to get a new lamp.
 

NHmaster

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Exactly!
a code compliant,safe and inspected install is is a code compliant safe and inspected install reguardless of who does it.

Lou

I would agree with you here except that is the smaller communities and towns that make up most of our state, the plumbing\mechanical inspector is also the electrical and building inspector. Some really know their stuff and some do not. In fact quite a few of them do not. Strangly enough it is unconstitutional to mandate inspectors also be licensed or for that matter even trained. In the town I live in the building inspectors only qualifications are that he's the selectmans brother in law and once worked for a summer as a laborer. Lou, I apprecaite the sentimant here but you are DEAD Wrong. If you can't see why than you need to do lot's more reading about plumbing and mechanical disasters that have occured in this country.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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I would agree with you here except that is the smaller communities and towns that make up most of our state, the plumbing\mechanical inspector is also the electrical and building inspector. Some really know their stuff and some do not. In fact quite a few of them do not. Strangly enough it is unconstitutional to mandate inspectors also be licensed or for that matter even trained. In the town I live in the building inspectors only qualifications are that he's the selectmans brother in law and once worked for a summer as a laborer. Lou, I apprecaite the sentimant here but you are DEAD Wrong. If you can't see why than you need to do lot's more reading about plumbing and mechanical disasters that have occured in this country.

I have a thorough respect for inspectors here, in most cases they have massive experience and knowledge to get where they are.

That said, they often DON'T catch every detail in the ten minutes they're there, and many cannot cover every aspect of code perfectly.

I have actually caught and redone my own mistakes after inspection, one inspector couldn't understand why I'd gone out of my way to drill through an additional wall to get a sewage ejector discharge to the 4" CI main to connect after the last 4" x 3" connection.(you know the code for sewage ejectors I'm sure).

There are so many small details in most codes that even an inspector with 40 years background may miss some of them.

Having two professionals on any given site to ensure the work is done correct is a MUCH better system than having an inspector with ten minutes to spare so he can get to the next inspection cover every possible detail on something that could potentially burn a house down that was done by the homeowner.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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.... Strangly enough it is unconstitutional to mandate inspectors also be licensed or for that matter even trained. ........

Having seen you say that before, I bet money it changes with time after something serious happens from an inspectors oversight.
I'm curious as to how your state came to that conclusion?
 

Redwood

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Strangly enough it is unconstitutional to mandate inspectors also be licensed or for that matter even trained.

Having seen you say that before, I bet money it changes with time after something serious happens from an inspectors oversight.
I'm curious as to how your state came to that conclusion?

Their license plate says it all!

nh_license_plate2_1.jpg
 
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