Wiring a Spa. Do I use #8 awg or 6/3 romex slimpull ?

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JWelectric

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Yea I wouldn't want the work to be obvious that a "homo(wner)" did it himself. : )
by the way the pvc goes thru the eave where it meets the wall.

You have several issues with the installation.
First and foremost NM cable can not be installed outside even if it is in a raceway.
334.12(B)(4)Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness

The transition from PVC to flex needs to be done using the proper fittings
356.42 Couplings and Connectors.
Only fittings listed for use with LFNC shall be used. Angle connectors shall not be used for concealed raceway installations. Straight LFNC fittings are permitted for direct burial or encasement in concrete.
Although the flex fits into the PVC the coupling that is part of the PVC is listed for use on PVC only.

Both the PVC and the flex needs to be supported
356.30 Securing and Supporting.
Type LFNC-B shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with one of the following:
Where installed in lengths exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft), the conduit shall be securely fastened at intervals not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) on each side of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

352.30 Securing and Supporting.
RNC shall be installed as a complete system as provided in 300.18 and shall be fastened so that movement from thermal expansion or contraction is permitted. RNC shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with 352.30(A) and (B).
Securely Fastened. RNC shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, conduit body, or other conduit termination. Conduit listed for securing at other than 900 mm (3 ft) shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the listing.

The panel will require an equipment grounding terminal bar for the equipment grounding conductors to land on that is also bonded to the panel itself.
250.96 Bonding Other Enclosures.
(A) General. Metal raceways, cable trays, cable armor, cable sheath, enclosures, frames, fittings, and other metal non–current-carrying parts that are to serve as grounding conductors, with or without the use of supplementary equipment grounding conductors, shall be effectively bonded where necessary to ensure electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on them. Any nonconductive paint, enamel, or similar coating shall be removed at threads, contact points, and contact surfaces or be connected by means of fittings designed so as to make such removal unnecessary.

The grounded (neutral) must not be connected to the enclosure or the equipment grounding conductor terminal
250.142(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B), a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.


Also the use on NM cable for this installation can be used for this part of the installation
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

Once the conductors leave the interior of the dwelling
680.25(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
(1) Size. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 but not smaller than 8 AWG.

The art of electrical installations involve a lot more than twisting wires together.
 

Alectrician

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334.12 But you will need a code book to read it



I think we have one in the office.

Can you cite the exception to this rule? EVERY residential roof top unit in AZ (and I am assuming elsewhere) has sleeved NM. Have all the inspectors overlooked this........ forever?

NM HAS to be allowed in exterior sleeves. I have done it thousands of times and have had it inspected countless times. Somebody somewhere would have caught it. When doing service changes or adding circuits the NM is generally sleeved. They don't consider it "conduit" if it is a sleeve.



Bender. Get a "hub" to fit the top of the panel. It has threads to accept your conduit connector. Make it plumb and strap it appropriately. To ME, PVC looks like homeowner work but apparently it is done a lot. I would use EMT to make it really clean. The PVC tends to warp and bow.
 
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480sparky

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Can you cite the exception to this rule? EVERY residential roof top unit in AZ (and I am assuming elsewhere) has sleeved NM. Have all the inspectors overlooked this........ forever?

NM HAS to be allowed in exterior sleeves. I have done it thousands of times and have had it inspected countless times. Somebody somewhere would have caught it.

This is being clarified in the '08 NEC:
300.5(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.8(C)...."

So this reads that if the raceway is above grade, it is not in a wet location.
 

JWelectric

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Can you cite the exception to this rule?

Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

There is no exception.

310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall be
(1) Moisture-impervious metal-sheathed;
(2) Types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THHW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW; or
(3) Of a type listed for use in wet locations.

The conductors in NM cable have no type marking on them therefore they are not one of these.
 

jMartin

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So did this last disagreement get settled? It is the only question left for my own, similar, spa installation.

Can I run the last few feet of NM type cable in Schedule 40 PVC conduit to my Spa Sub Panel?

Jim
 

Drick

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Technically your not supposed to. NM is not considered waterproof and conduit exposed to rain is considered a wet location.

-rick
 

jMartin

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OK, how about another "romex" question...

So I have read this post over and over several times but still have this question...

I assume from the information in this post that I can use 6/3 NM from my garage panel to the spa GFCI sub panel (a long attic run).
However the 'romex' style wire that I see everywhere (Home Depot / Lowes) that everyone is calling "6/3 Romex" has a 6 AWG Black, a 6 AWG White, and a 6 AWG Red wire, but the ground is not insulated (well, paper wrapped) and is only a solid (not stranded) 10 AWG.
Is that wire acceptable between the panels? Or do I truly need a wire that has four 6 AWG conductors and all separately insulated (RED, Black, Green, and White)?

Keep in mind that my spa requires only a 3 wire connection from the sub panel, 2 hots and a ground (Red, Black, and Green - those will be 3 independent 6 AWG wires through 1" PVC from the Spa-GFCI Panel to the equipment).

I think I'm asking the question right.
 

lilricky

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Your ground definitely needs to be insulated by code. And remember that the NEC requires a manual disconnect at least 5 feet away, and within line of sight. As for the number of conductors you need, are you sure you don't need 3 conductors and a ground? What model is your spa?
 
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Speedy Petey

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In a one family dwelling setting, the interior portion of the wiring CAN be NM cable. ALL of the outside portion of this circuit must be insulated conductors in conduit.
 

ActionDave

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Your ground definitely needs to be insulated by code. And remember that the NEC requires a manual disconnect at least 5 feet away, and within line of sight. As for the number of conductors you need, are you sure you don't need 3 conductors and a ground? What model is your spa?
The emergency shut off is not required in single family dwellings. NEC 680.41
 

Speedy Petey

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The emergency shut off is not required in single family dwellings. NEC 680.41

He didn't say emergencey shut off, he said disconnect. Two distinctly different things.
A service disconnect IS required.

The emergency shut off you are referring to is also required to be not less than 5' away. (NEC 680.41)
 

JWelectric

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Five oclock rush hour traffic and what do I see? A blind man helping another blind man cross an intersection.

What do you think Petey? Does some of the post in this thread remind you of something like that?
 

Jim Port

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At least no one here is recommending solving the problems with resistors, a switch wired in series with a load and a 100 watt light bulb.
 

Mitchelli

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Spa electrical question

I bought a used spa which has about 10 feet of 6 gauge wire coming out of it (red,blk,wht,ground) in that flexible watertight conduit. So, I need to get a 50 amp GFCI and then there is about 20 feet to a box that was installed when the house was built that is labeled SPA. Problem is the wire from that box to the 50 amp breaker in the main circuit breaker box in the garage is that it looks to me like 8 gauge wire on that run(about 20 feet). So, can you go from 8 gauge to 6 gauge wire at the gfci box outside?(another 20 foot run) Thanks in advance...scott
 

Cbuehler

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Is the feeder necessary?

Is the 50A double-pole breaker in the panel required? The GFCI mini-panel has a breaker already... can't a guy tie directly into the bus bar? I don't have room in the main panel.

And does anyone know if you have to remove the sheathing on 6/3 Simpull if it's in 1" conduit?

thanks guys!!
 

JWelectric

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Yes you need to protect the conductors in the panel and there is no need to skin or strip the conductors out of the sheathing
 
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