Winter well leak

[Coloradogirl]

The heater, where the pressure tank is located, failed during subzero weather. Here is the setup: If you are standing at the pitless well, the house is a couple hundred feet to the south and the shop that holds the fiberglass pressure tank is 60' +/- to the north of you. Prior to failure water ran in house with better than normal pressure - then later resumed typical lower pressure then stopped.
At the shop bathroom, where pressure tank is, I found the temp at about 20 to 30 - no running water and no apparent leaks from broken pipes (yet). I shut off well pump breaker and replaced and cranked up heater in the room.
Next day, turned on pump. Water to house fine - still no water at pressure tank. Checked later and found massive new pooled fresh and frozen water between well and shop area. No water leak at pressure tank area. Shut off pump breaker and waited another day. Next day - turned on well pump and found broken pipes to bath shower. Shut off connection to bath - no water leaks from pressure tank or associated pipes.
However, water was flowing up from well. Well head is embedded in pipe within pipe in a 2 x 2 cement slab with cast iron access head rising up 2'. Water "appears" to be flowing from the pipe within pipe area in the slab. I don't see any evidence (yet) that water is bubbling up from the ground area anywhere else, but we still have 8" or so of snow on ground - but temp is 45 today.
This is a submersible pump - the well is about 340' deep. The pump is operating and water is flowing to the house to the south of the well and the shop bath housing the pressure tank - and clearly is flowing out ground level at the well. When the pump breaker is off, the pressure tank shows 20/30 lbs pressure - shows about 60 when the breaker is on. Truthfully, it seems to me that the pressure tank typically shows 20/30 lbs when in use until the tank is pressuring up. I have about 13 hydrants to this system for pastures, pens and runs. All syphon freeze-free, although I don't see these as related to this issue.
I've some concerns regarding the well service guy and would like some help trouble shooting before I call anyone out. I'm still "defrosting" the system, more or less, but hope you guys can offer some ideas about what has happened. The area where the original freeze happened is 60 feet or more from the water flow from the well so I can't see it as a broken pipe from so far. All pipes are 3' or more down and water is flowing to each building when I turn on the well pump.
Is it possible that a pressure buildup from the frozen pipe broke a connection to the well or cracked the casing? Its just me here - so keep it simple.

 

[Greenmonster123]

Does the pressure in the system drop after the pump shuts off?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

When the little nipple to the pressure switch froze, the pump could not shut off. This probably spiked the pressure and burst a pipe or two. It is probably good that it broke a pipe. If a pipe did not break and the pump did not shut off, the pump would have gotten hot and would probably be locked up and not running anymore.

When you get the pipe fixed the pressure will not drop when the pump is off, which is what Greenmonster is asking about. Probably going to need a new pressure gauge to see what is going on. Pressure gauge and pressure switch are always the first things to freeze.

 

[Coloradogirl]

Does the pressure in the system drop after the pump shuts off?

Yes. The pressure = 50/60 with breaker on and pump running. The pressure drops to 25 +/- and remains constant when I shut the breaker off. I'm going to need to run water (or find a way to haul some in) to a stock tank - is damage likely to occur or worsen if I run the well/pump?

 

[Reach4]

The pressure drops to 25 +/- and remains constant when I shut the breaker off.

Are you measuring that with a water pressure gauge, or are you using an air pressure gauge on the pressure tank precharge? If it is a water pressure gauge, consider replacing that gauge, or suppliment it with a pressure gauge with a garden hose thread. You can put that onto a washing machine tap or the drain for the water heater.

 

[Coloradogirl]

When the little nipple to the pressure switch froze, the pump could not shut off. This probably spiked the pressure and burst a pipe or two. It is probably good that it broke a pipe. If a pipe did not break and the pump did not shut off, the pump would have gotten hot and would probably be locked up and not running anymore.

When you get the pipe fixed the pressure will not drop when the pump is off, which is what Greenmonster is asking about. Probably going to need a new pressure gauge to see what is going on. Pressure gauge and pressure switch are always the first things to freeze.

Can you speculate on what pipe might be broken? As the water appears to be leaching up from the gap between the pipes, at the well head, where they surface at the cement slab - is it likely that the break is to the casing or is it possible that the water might be coming in from a break in the system pipes connecting to the well? Incoming pipes would be at the 3' freeze level where the well/casing goes down nearly 400'. If it is a casing break, is there a repair potential that doesn't require digging up the well? Since water runs to the house and runs to the shop bath (pressure tank area) would that likely confirm it to be a well/casing issue?
I've recently retired which has created a catastrophic drop in income - if repairs are high, I will simply have to live without water and save forward for repairs. Therefore, quality speculation on what you guys have seen in the field is going to guide my decisions. Clearly, I understand informed speculation is still just that. Appreciate all words of wisdom.

 

[Reach4]

Can you speculate on what pipe might be broken? As the water appears to be leaching up from the gap between the pipes, at the well head, where they surface at the cement slab - is it likely that the break is to the casing or is it possible that the water might be coming in from a break in the system pipes connecting to the well?

You have two pipes surfacing at the well head? I hope one is the casing, and one is the electrical conduit. I suggest that you post a picture that includes the leak and surrounding metal.

 

[Coloradogirl]

Are you measuring that with a water pressure gauge, or are you using an air pressure gauge on the pressure tank precharge? If it is a water pressure gauge, consider replacing that gauge, or suppliment it with a pressure gauge with a garden hose thread. You can put that onto a washing machine tap or the drain for the water heater.

The pressure is taken from the one at the pressure tank. The well is centered with the house system to the south and the shop bath/pressure tank to the north. I do have a pressure gage with hose/faucet gage, should I attach it to water heater at the shop or something at the house (or both?). I have hydrants that I could attach to, as well. Does/ could turning pump breaker on, to check pressure, cause additional damage? I'm still thawing the system and haven't walked over to check for changes yet, so I may have more info soon. Would the pipes around the pressure gage, if frozen, crack, break, or have a noticeable leak?

 

[Coloradogirl]

You have two pipes surfacing at the well head? I hope one is the casing, and one is the electrical conduit. I suggest that you post a picture that includes the leak and surrounding metal.

I go out and take photos now. The electric conduit is below ground but can be seen if you remove/look down bolt on top. The pipe appears to be a big outer pipe with the well pipe and head (nearly as large) within it. Water appeared to be coming from the small gap between inner and outer pipe. However, I was in 50 yard dash to get to the breaker to shut off. Will return and post photos.

 

[Reach4]

It seems to me that if your frost level is 36 inches, you must be in the warmer part of CO.

The pressure is taken from the one at the pressure tank. The well is centered with the house system to the south and the shop bath/pressure tank to the north. I do have a pressure gage with hose/faucet gage, should I attach it to water heater at the shop or something at the house (or both?). I have hydrants that I could attach to, as well.

Other than a small adjustment for elevation, (0.433 PSI/ft), the gauges should match.

I have hydrants that I could attach to, as well.

Don't do that, unless you get a warm spell. Those are empty now, and you don't want them filled with water that then freezes.

Does/ could turning pump breaker on, to check pressure, cause additional damage? I'm still thawing the system and haven't walked over to check for changes yet, so I may have more info soon. Would the pipes around the pressure gage, if frozen, crack, break, or have a noticeable leak?

I don't know about the leaks. Certainly the gauge can go bad without leaking. I suspect your gauge is bad. Those are pretty cheap. Are you asking if thawing could show a leak that had not happened before?

Turning on the pump to check pressure? Can you tell us about your pump and the depth to water? Based on that we could guess what damage potential there would be. Perhaps you could put in a relief valve that lets out water at 80 or 100 PSI could prevent damage. Where would the water go? Septic tank?

I am picturing the pressure tank being frozen. You need a working pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

If water is squirting up out of the well head when the power is on most likely the o-ring in the pitless adapter blew out. If the tank froze and the pressure switch didn't shut off the pump it might have blown the o-ring. 25 cent o-ring and easy fix with a winch truck. PITA without a winch truck if the well is very deep. If the water is coming from the outside of the casing you can dig it up and fix the line where it attaches to the pitless.

 

[Coloradogirl]

You have two pipes surfacing at the well head? I hope one is the casing, and one is the electrical conduit. I suggest that you post a picture that includes the leak and surrounding metal.

Something has changed - but I'll get to that. I was wrong - only one pipe up thru cement base. I thought, and believe I saw, water coming up around pipe. Not now. Pressure was high when pump was running - not now. Pressure remains constant by tank at 22 psi on old gage - may not be working. Water was getting to house, shop and at least one hydrant - not now. Using water pressure gage at hydrant - showed zero psi. When removed, a slow flow was at the hydrant - not now.
There's a 3x3' =/- cement base around well head and the water is now (or always was) coming up at the west side along that base at three different places. Very sandy soil here and lot of sand washing up with water leak. The well is mid way with house to the south and shop to the north. The leak is at west side directly at the base and there is water to the surface at each west edge and mid way. There is a hydrant west of the pump that feeds another hydrant - but I would think the connection would be on the east side to the other pipes. The pump runs quiet. The water line is 42" deep. The house is 126 1/2' from the well and the well is 54 1/2' from the shop and was completed October 1980 and is 340' deep. Plain casing 8" steel from 0 to 37 feet; 5" plastic from 0 to 315'. Grouting material poured cement at intervals of 0 to 315' . Water at 30' but final pumping water level: 250' and takes water from the Cheyenne aquifer.
The well was appears to have changed from a pit to pitless with install of new 1 hp pump mid 2001. Pressure tank and related parts replaced 2007 - Flowtech Pro fiberglass tank.

 

[Reach4]

There are Flotec pressure tanks.

Your 1 HP pump can probably generate a lot of pressure with the static level of the water at 30 ft if there is not flow. You would expect the temperature and pressure valve on the water heater to release water if the pressure gets to 150. That presumes you did not turnoff the water to the water heater.

What is the temperature outside now?

How warm is it where the pressure tank is? We know you need a new pressure gauge, and it would probably be a good idea to replace the pressure switch too. Where do you shop for such things?

It will be good when you get the pressure tank thawed. I hope it survived.

 

[Coloradogirl]

It seems to me that if your frost level is 36 inches, you must be in the warmer part of CO.


Other than a small adjustment for elevation, (0.433 PSI/ft), the gauges should match.


Don't do that, unless you get a warm spell. Those are empty now, and you don't want them filled with water that then freezes.

I don't know about the leaks. Certainly the gauge can go bad without leaking. I suspect your gauge is bad. Those are pretty cheap. Are you asking if thawing could show a leak that had not happened before?

Turning on the pump to check pressure? Can you tell us about your pump and the depth to water? Based on that we could guess what damage potential there would be. Perhaps you could put in a relief valve that lets out water at 80 or 100 PSI could prevent damage. Where would the water go? Septic tank?

I am picturing the pressure tank being frozen. You need a working pressure tank.

It seems to me that if your frost level is 36 inches, you must be in the warmer part of CO.


Other than a small adjustment for elevation, (0.433 PSI/ft), the gauges should match.


Don't do that, unless you get a warm spell. Those are empty now, and you don't want them filled with water that then freezes.

I don't know about the leaks. Certainly the gauge can go bad without leaking. I suspect your gauge is bad. Those are pretty cheap. Are you asking if thawing could show a leak that had not happened before?

Turning on the pump to check pressure? Can you tell us about your pump and the depth to water? Based on that we could guess what damage potential there would be. Perhaps you could put in a relief valve that lets out water at 80 or 100 PSI could prevent damage. Where would the water go? Septic tank?

I am picturing the pressure tank being frozen. You need a working pressure tank.

The room was 22 degrees, but I'd checked the heater recently, The toilet had ice in the bowl but was not frozen solid and the water heater, which was off, showed no sign of being frozen so I'm not sure the tank froze. With 2 days of 45 degrees - I'm better able to see viewable pipe damage. The orig. owners lived in the shop while working on the house over a few years. I'm wondering if it is a mistake to have the pump/pressure equipment out there rather than in the house basement. Is it feasible, when my ship comes in, to move the equipment to the home and still have function at the shop and hydrants? All hydrants are agri type frost free Merrill's that syphon over 3' below ground. They aren't taken out of service in winter. I've a small 80 acre place on the Southeastern high plains (elevation 3684 feet) - one of the Dust Bowl areas from the dirty 30's. No silly trees to block the wind flow.

As for a relief valve - The house septic system is over 130 feet away and the shop septic is 90 ft away. It is drought prone here and relies on irrigation from these aquifers. Water waste is a formidable no-no. As the system is so far from the house and the shop is on its own meter - keeping track is an issue. Being a room at first floor level on an all electric location, storm outage in severe weather makes the system freeze damage prone. Thus the thought of moving the shebang into the home's basement. Any random thoughts on the idea are welcome....but first I need water. I'm starting to smell like the livestock.

 

[Reach4]

Is it feasible, when my ship comes in, to move the equipment to the home and still have function at the shop and hydrants?

The main chore will be to move the pressure switch wiring. You need a pressure tank at the pressure switch. It is probable that you would not need more piping, presuming the pipe to the house is not too small for the job. So moving the pressure switch (with wire) and pressure tank would be needed to be moved.

The relief valve would be to protect against pressure switch failure to save pipes etc. It would not normally take water.

For now, I would replace the pressure gauge and pressure switch where they sit. Do you have a place to buy those? Hardware store or other place that would have plumbing supplies? If not, get them on order. They are easy as plumbing and electrical things go.

You will also want a tire pump and tire pressure gauge to check and maybe adjust the pressure tank precharge. You probably have those already ... somewhere.

 

[Coloradogirl]

There are Flotec pressure tanks.

Your 1 HP pump can probably generate a lot of pressure with the static level of the water at 30 ft if there is not flow. You would expect the temperature and pressure valve on the water heater to release water if the pressure gets to 150. That presumes you did not turnoff the water to the water heater.

What is the temperature outside now?

How warm is it where the pressure tank is? We know you need a new pressure gauge, and it would probably be a good idea to replace the pressure switch too. Where do you shop for such things?

It will be good when you get the pressure tank thawed. I hope it survived.

It is quite rural here so I imagine the ranch supply store has parts in stock. Orig. is Square D switch and Campbell gage. When they replaced the tank for me they did a mess of elbows and short connecters, which means I have little or no straight pipe to connect to and may be forced to replace the entire line to the incoming line and connection to tank. I'm assuming that the switch shows the cutout/in pressures of the switch for exact replacement. Not sure tank froze since w/h did not freeze up - I guess that will become clear soon.
Room is highly insulated and heated to 65 degrees. Heater malfunctioned during -25 weather. last 2 days 45, today 32 and snowing. Projected to get 54 on Saturday.
What does it indicate that no water now to outlets with water flowing from around ground outside of well? It makes sense to add relief valve to the system with this amendment - thanks for the advise. Although, it seems that on the prior winter failure and replacement that the Pump service people would have put one in. Where in the line does the relief valve go - before switch; between switch and gage or after those but in front of connection to tank?

 

[Reach4]

The ranch store likely has those. Otherwise you would want them put in the mail. Expect to pay maybe $30 for the switch and $20 for the gauge. Click Inbox above.

You don't need to get the same pressure rating for the switch as you have now. You just need to adjust the pressure tank air precharge to 2 PSI below the cut-on. For example, if the cut-on is 30, you would set the air precharge to 28 PSI. 40/60 PSI is pretty common. 30/50 or 20/40 might be even better in the short term since it would make the leak at the wellhead spout less water. Those things are adjustable.

What does it indicate that no water now to outlets with water flowing from around ground outside of well? It makes sense to add relief valve to the system with this amendment - thanks for the advise.

Regarding water flowing to the ground, see post #11. You are going to need to get that fixed or start digging. Until that is fixed, I see you only turning the pump on intermittently. And that presumes the water is flowing from the ground at a low rate. If it is spitting out 3 GPM, then you really are going to need to get that fixed soon, even if it means taking out a loan.

If you are saying that now water does not make it anywhere other than the ground around the well, that would seem to indicate that a pipe completely broke. Or maybe the poly pipe blew off of the barb fitting.

Does water flow inside the pressure tank area? You probably have a spigot at the base of the pressure tank to check that.

The pressure switch and pressure gauge are easy. They are usually on 1/4 inch ID pipe nipples. You unscrew the old and screw on the new-- paying attention to the wires of course.

Regarding the relief valve, I don't have one myself. But many people think they are very important, and it sounds like your situation may have been prevented if you had one. But if that was at the pressure tank, the common place, you would have had water coming out. If that was coming out on the floor there, that would have been bad. You could have had a sheet of ice maybe.

 

[Coloradogirl]

The main chore will be to move the pressure switch wiring. You need a pressure tank at the pressure switch. It is probable that you would not need more piping, presuming the pipe to the house is not too small for the job. So moving the pressure switch (with wire) and pressure tank would be needed to be moved.

The relief valve would be to protect against pressure switch failure to save pipes etc. It would not normally take water.

For now, I would replace the pressure gauge and pressure switch where they sit. Do you have a place to buy those? Hardware store or other place that would have plumbing supplies? If not, get them on order. They are easy as plumbing and electrical things go.

You will also want a tire pump and tire pressure gauge to check and maybe adjust the pressure tank precharge. You probably have those already ... somewhere.

On closer look, it appears that there is a brass pressure relief valve installed at the gage/switch section. So, now I'm confused, why didn't it function?

 

[Reach4]

Maybe it froze too.

 

[Valveman]

Maybe it froze too.

Yeah or it was after the frozen part.