Who is KCPL trying to protect?

Users who are viewing this thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Raucina

New Member
Messages
515
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I just replaced a 200 amp service that was hot and had no meter [and incredibly, no meter cover] for 32 years. Since the power company took so long to come turn it off for my work, and I had some welding to do on an excavator, i borrowed a few amps from their exposed hot lugs.

I figure they owe it to me for informing them of their screw up that should have barbequed a neighborhood kid over all those years. Almost charred myself when starting work, but on the outside chance they were totally incompetent, put a meter to it first. My wife would have been in the pink after that!

NOW..... got the new box in and tagged by building, but they are following new rules and want to see a house before reheating the box! We will see about that, but the moral of the story is big Bro POCo is not a good or reliable or particularly competent person to deal with.
 

BrianJohn

DIY Senior Member
Messages
150
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Virginia
Think about they have 1000's of customers that one falls through the cracks and it benefited the end user, no foul no harm.

And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.
 

Bob NH

In the Trades
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
9
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.

I find this humorous after all the hyperventilating, including from BrianJohn, about my using what are in fact well-insulated and safe pruning loppers to cut a #2 aluminum wire that was energized at 120 Volts.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
I find this humorous after all the hyperventilating, including from BrianJohn, about my using what are in fact well-insulated and safe pruning loppers to cut a #2 aluminum wire that was energized at 120 Volts.


Bob,

I am having a hard time believing that you don’t understand the danger that you took cutting a live wire with pruning sheers.

Your comment about it being 120 volts neither lends nor leads to the safety you showed in this thread.

You should know that the only thing that protects the secondary of the transformer is the fuse on the primary side. This could let the secondary hold indefinitely around 500 amps to ground fault. This is enough heat to raise the temperature of approximately 18,850 gallons of water 10 degrees.
Reference;
One watt equals 3.1412 BTUs
One British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the amount of heat it takes to raise the temperature on one gallon of water one degree.
How much liquid does the human body have?

Copper becomes liquid at around 5000 degrees Fahrenheit. This a whole lot of heat for the human body to endure.

I hope that you understand that the human body will carry current on an exponential curve and the longer the current flows the less the bodies resistance until there is a bolted fault. By this time flesh has burned completely away.

I also hope that you understand that anytime that there is current flow heat is produced. If enough current flows it can cause coagulating of the blood that will go undetected for days until a sharp pain is felt in the chest and …….. Well I’ll let you form your own opinion.
To aid in this opinion there are more deaths recorded as heart failure after an electrical shock than any other death electrically connected. Reference; Copper Bussmann Safety Basics

I do hope that every person that reads this thread understands that there was nothing safe about cutting energized conductors with pruning sheers.
I hope that everyone reading this thread understands that if cutting energized conductors with pruning sheers was a safe method then the manufactures of cable cutters would have went out of business a long time ago.

Over the past 40 years and thousand or so service changes I have done I have never cut an energized service drop. There is no need to and careful planning a temporary receptacle can be set up without any danger of contact with live conductors.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Leejosepho

DIY scratch-pad engineer
Messages
2,483
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
200 miles south of Little Rock
Website
www.nonameyet.org
Bob,

I am having a hard time believing that you don’t understand the danger that you took cutting a live wire with pruning sheers ...

Over the past 40 years and thousand or so service changes I have done I have never cut an energized service drop ...

Well then, so much for speaking from experience, eh?!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
Well then, so much for speaking from experience, eh?!
Yep! There is much to be said about "experoence" but myself I think that "common sense" carries a lot of weight also.

One thing for sure, there is a lot more of us "experienced" around that has "common sense" than there are experienced without common sense.

I suppose that one would require some level of common sense before one could reconize danger. What do you think?
 

Leejosepho

DIY scratch-pad engineer
Messages
2,483
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
200 miles south of Little Rock
Website
www.nonameyet.org
I suppose that one would require some level of common sense before one could reconize danger. What do you think?

Surely, and that common-sense recognition of danger in conjunction with both overall and specific knowledge, experience and careful planning left Bob both absolutely and rightly certain he would be completely safe doing exactly as he did.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
Surely, and that common-sense recognition of danger in conjunction with both overall and specific knowledge, experience and careful planning left Bob both absolutely and rightly certain he would be completely safe doing exactly as he did.

And that kind of thinking is the very reason the grave yard is as full as it is now.

There is no amount of reasoning or explanation that would even come close to making what Bob did safe.

This is like the guy playing Russian Roulette and didn’t kill himself on the first pull of the trigger. Well let’s keep pulling the trigger just because the gun didn’t fire the first time it MUST BE A SAFE GAME TO PLAY.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob NH

In the Trades
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
9
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
It wasn't unsafe! I knew the cutters were insulated far beyond that necessary to protect me from 120 volts, and that I could not reach the hot wire. There was more than a foot of insulated handle between me and the 120 Volts. The insulation was more than 10 times the insulation on a meter lead that is rated for 1000 Volts. It was also a lot safer than a pair of linemans pliers with insulated handles because the separation distance was much greater.

The bolted fault current of the transformer is irrelevant if the insulation far exceeds the voltage resistance of the material between the human. Even after all or your hyperventilating on the subject I would do it again and again because I KNOW it was and is safe.

You guys with your "I'm an electrician and therefore I'm holier than thou." attitude are acting like you are gods of electricity and everyone else is totally ignorant of how to keep themselves safe.

Maybe BrainJohn who gave us the statement that "And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts." can give us a link to the equipment and parts that are POCO approved and UL "listed for the purpose" of tapping into unmetered hot service drops.
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
It wasn't unsafe!
Bob, with the utmost of respect to you knowledge and ability I MUST once again point out that there was NOTHING safe about you procedure except the fact that you seem predisposed in proving that you were safe in your mind.



I knew the cutters were insulated far beyond that necessary to protect me from 120 volts, and that I could not reach the hot wire. There was more than a foot of insulated handle between me and the 120 Volts. The insulation was more than 10 times the insulation on a meter lead that is rated for 1000 Volts.
Here again you make reference to 120 volts as though you think that 120 volts is less dangerous that any other voltage. IT IS NOT THE VOLTAGE THAT KILLS, IT IS THE AMPERAGE THAT KILLS.
The key to the difference in the meter and the pruning sheers is the word “ratedâ€
As you pointed out the meter is “rated†for 1000 volts but the pruning sheers are not rated at all.

It was also a lot safer than a pair of linemans pliers with insulated handles because the separation distance was much greater.
I don’t believe that I would say a lot safer than lineman’s pliers as both are dangerous. The cutting of the energized service drop itself is dangerous unless you have the proper training in such matters no matter what tool is used.

The bolted fault current of the transformer is irrelevant if the insulation far exceeds the voltage resistance of the material between the human. Even after all or your hyperventilating on the subject I would do it again and again because I KNOW it was and is safe.
The available current at any point of contact is the only thing that is relevant. It is the current flow that MUST be protected against. It is the lack of this knowledge that makes some of us laugh when we here you make this statement, “subject I would do it again and again because I KNOW it was and is safe.â€
No you were not safe and no matter if you try to convince yourself from now till the end of time, what you did will never be safe.

You guys with your "I'm an electrician and therefore I'm holier than thou." attitude are acting like you are gods of electricity and everyone else is totally ignorant of how to keep themselves safe.
Well my friend when someone is trying to show you the err of your ways I suppose that one way of convincing oneself that their actions was safe is to attack the character of those helping.
The word ignorant means, the lack of knowledge or training
Your comments show that you are ignorant of the safety issues involved in using pruning sheers to cut live wires.
Stupidity comes into play when shown the err of your actions you repeatedly defend your actions. You have carried ignorance far beyond the point of stupidity.

Maybe BrainJohn who gave us the statement that "And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts." can give us a link to the equipment and parts that are POCO approved and UL "listed for the purpose" of tapping into unmetered hot service drops.
By simply removing the meter, dismounting the old meter pan and moving it out of the way one can then install a single receptacle on the load side of the old meter and then reinstall the meter and have current to use for a temporary service. Yes there is more to it than what I posted here but then again I am talking to someone who is already sold on the idea that using pruning sheers to cut a service drop is safe.
 
R

Rancher

Guest
By simply removing the meter, dismounting the old meter pan and moving it out of the way one can then install a single receptacle on the load side of the old meter and then reinstall the meter and have current to use for a temporary service. Yes there is more to it than what I posted here but then again I am talking to someone who is already sold on the idea that using pruning sheers to cut a service drop is safe.
The question was, parts for tapping into unmetered hot service drops.

Originally Posted by Bob NH said:
Maybe BrainJohn who gave us the statement that "And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts." can give us a link to the equipment and parts that are POCO approved and UL "listed for the purpose" of tapping into unmetered hot service drops.

Rancher
 

JWelectric

Electrical Contractor/Instructor
Messages
2,608
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Location
North Carolina
The question was, parts for tapping into unmetered hot service drops.
Rancher

In an unbridled attempt to justify the use of pruning sheers to cut an energized service drop and proving that the use of pruning sheers poses no danger if one takes certain precautionary measures what Brian said has been taken out of text.

Using the proper methods for changing a service one can have power through the process and no one is ever exposed to live circuits.

What has happened throughout this thread is a very stupid method was used to demonstrate a procedure to accomplish a service change and when the method was pointed out as being dangerous a couple of the posters has done everything short of embarrassing their selves to prove that the method posted poses no danger.

What Brian said was;
And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.
As you can see the use of a unmetered tap was not mentioned. The quote from;
can give us a link to the equipment and parts that are POCO approved and UL "listed for the purpose" of tapping into unmetered hot service drops.
was an attempt to redirect the topic from the use of lawn equipment being used to cut a hot wire.

The proper use of the old service can give the electrician some borrowed watts without anyone ever cutting the service at all and especially with lawn equipment.
 

Statjunk

DIY Senior Member
Messages
540
Reaction score
0
Points
0
It wasn't unsafe! I knew the cutters were insulated far beyond that necessary to protect me from 120 volts, and that I could not reach the hot wire. There was more than a foot of insulated handle between me and the 120 Volts.

Bob,

I have to agree with what's been said here that what you've done is very unsafe. Given many trials I think you'd eventually no longer be with us. The biggest issue I have is with your statement above.

How can you know the cutters were insulated. The only way I could understand your choice is if you did a full disassembly of them to prove there was no metal rods running through the handle. Not even the customer service rep would know that info so how could you. Even asking a customer service rep for a pruning sheer company wouldn't be enough. You'd be trusting your life to an $8/hour employee.

I'm glad you're alive.

Tom
 
R

Rancher

Guest
jwelectric said:
What Brian said was;

BrianJohn said:
And during service changes electricians always borrow some watts.

As you can see the use of a unmetered tap was not mentioned.
How do you borrow some watts without an unmetered tap, you don't...you plug the meter back in, it continues to meter the power used.

jwelectric said:
Over the past 40 years and thousand or so service changes I have done I have never cut an energized service drop ...
Which makes you the expert on changing energized service drops, do you even prune your own fruit trees?


Rancher
 

Cookie

.
Messages
5,580
Reaction score
8
Points
0
Location
Home
SGKEnergizerBunny_img.jpg



This thread is like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going!
 

Bob NH

In the Trades
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
9
Points
0
Location
New Hampshire
Here again you make reference to 120 volts as though you think that 120 volts is less dangerous that any other voltage. IT IS NOT THE VOLTAGE THAT KILLS, IT IS THE AMPERAGE THAT KILLS.

The available current at any point of contact is the only thing that is relevant. It is the current flow that MUST be protected against.

Well my friend when someone is trying to show you the err of your ways I suppose that one way of convincing oneself that their actions was safe is to attack the character of those helping.
The word ignorant means, the lack of knowledge or training
Your comments show that you are ignorant of the safety issues involved in using pruning sheers to cut live wires.
Stupidity comes into play when shown the err of your actions you repeatedly defend your actions. You have carried ignorance far beyond the point of stupidity.

By simply removing the meter, dismounting the old meter pan and moving it out of the way one can then install a single receptacle on the load side of the old meter and then reinstall the meter and have current to use for a temporary service. Yes there is more to it than what I posted here but then again I am talking to someone who is already sold on the idea that using pruning sheers to cut a service drop is safe.

I haven't attacked anyone's character. I have responded to the "holier than thou" attacks that call me ignorant without any regard to the properties of the tool that I used.

I wasn't using "pruning shears". I was using an anvil lopper with long fiberglass reinforced handles containing no metal and covered with plastic in the holding area. The resistance between the single metal blade and handle exceeded the 30 Megohm scale on my meter.

I suggest that you study Ohm's law (Amps = Volts/Resistance). It's the amperage that kills, but the amperage available through 30 Megohms (The scale limit of my meter) at 120 Volts is 4 microamps. That is about 1/1000 of the trip current of a GFCI. It was SAFE.

How do you dismount the old meter pan and move it without disconnecting the service drop? All of the meter pans that I have seen are mounted via fasteners inside the pan. If you haven't disconnected the service drop (I cut the service drop BEFORE I removed the meter and the meter pan.) you are working in very close proximity to energized meter terminals. That is a lot more dangerous than cutting a hot wire with 30-Megohm-insulated tool.
 

Leejosepho

DIY scratch-pad engineer
Messages
2,483
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
200 miles south of Little Rock
Website
www.nonameyet.org
This thread is like the Energizer Bunny, it keeps going and going!

To Nowhere!

There might never be agreement here, but that does not matter. What matters is that people are reminded about safety all around ...

I believe BobNH to be a careful guy ... I'm sure he [knew] he was very safe in doing what he did ...

What you absolutely don't want on a DIY forum like this, is for future uneducated DIY Homeowner/Hacks reading this thread, is to think that it is OK to sever your service entrance cable with a pair of hedge clippers ...

This thread will continue until personalities are no longer placed above principles and that message is clear to everyone!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks