Which valves

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by ItLeaks, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. ItLeaks

    ItLeaks New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Howdy folks, I just started demo on a small bathroom remodel, per wifes request. The room is 5x5 and the shower is 48 x 36. The wife asked about 2 heads in the shower, she wants a rain head and a standard head. After doing a week of reading I have 2 posssible routes. The house is on slab floor with 1/2 supply through the attic to the shower and great pressure. Also i'm in CA. and some of the valves cant be sold here, I would love to be able to run one head or both at the same time.

    1 setup is a KOHLER K-679-KS-NA MasterShower 1/2-Inch Thermostatic Valve, with 2 volume control knobs.

    2nd setup is a KOHLER K-304-KS-NA Rite-Temp Pressure Balancing Valve, with a KOHLER K-728-K-NA Mastershower 2 or 3-Way Transfer Valve switched to 2 way.

    I did look at moentrol with the divertor on it but it wont ship to Ca.

    Any ideas or input is appreciated, I havent looked at other brands simply to avoid confusion on my part. I have already learned alot here spending hours reading. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2011
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,128
    Location:
    New England
    Many of the pros here like Delta. I'm sure they have some stuff that meets the low-lead CA requirements. I have Grohe in my house, but used a Delta valve when I redid my Mother's...easier to get parts for (a little, anyways). Parts for Kohler are sometimes hard to come by, and may only be available from the factory (and often expensive).
  3. ItLeaks

    ItLeaks New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Ive looked at Delta also, but they dont tell you which trim design fits main valve and the 3/6 diverter. When delta says function do they mean temp and pressure. I did look at Grohe also but they appear european in design kinda ikea like.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,128
    Location:
    New England
    Sometimes, it's easier to look at a retailer's site verses the manufacturer's! Look at the R10000 rough-in valve. It doesn't come with trim or a cartridge. You get to choose the functionality: single handle pressure balanced; two knob volume/temp; two knob temp/volume thermostatic. So, depends on which trim and cartridge you install in the same rough-in valve, as to the functionality it provides. Look at the 1800 series (if I remember correctly). The style of any trim is a personal thing...whatever works for you and your significant other.
  5. bulldog plumbing

    bulldog plumbing New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    batavia il
    the k 304 will give you plenty of volume as long as you don't "hot rod" the shower heads, (take out the gpm limiters... :) like the kohler more than the moen, but what jadnashua says is pretty accurate, any issue you have is going to send you to a supply house for parts. (hopefully years later) I have installed tons of the kohler 304s and only a few of moentrol 3320's and the moentrols, when done with the 4 body sprays leave a lot to be desired. technically the moen only puts out 7 gpm so moen makes their body sprays work with either 1 gpm or 1/2 a gpm.... ()bottom line is i've had far fewer customer complaints about the pricier kohlers
  6. ItLeaks

    ItLeaks New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Thats one of my plans is to use the k-304 but which valves after it though,

    1.Mastershower® 2- or 3-way Transfer Valve- K-728-K
    or
    2. 2 @ 1/2" Volume control- K-681-K

    It will be feeding a standard wall shower head and a 6 or 8'' rainhead. I would never pull a tim allen lol.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,050
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I think Tim called it the "who needs a man" setting. Removing the flow restrictors could affect how the pressure balance spool works as they require some back-pressure. That said, I pulled a Tim Allen and not only removed the flow restrictor but even reversed the rough-in to tap off of the larger tub spout port. If the wife ever drew cold water from her roman tub filler while I was showering, I'd look like a cooked lobster.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,811
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; If the wife ever drew cold water from her roman tub filler while I was showering, I'd look like a cooked lobster.

    You would also have to repair your shower valve because the balancing unit had failed. Balancing spools function according to the incoming pressure and will work the same regardless of whether there was even a shower head installed. And in the case of a diverter spout, it uses MORE water than a shower head with the restrictor removed and the balancing spool STILL functions.
  9. ItLeaks

    ItLeaks New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Which of these choices work best and wont destroy the 304.........anybody?

  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,128
    Location:
    New England
    Some main valves specify not to utilize shut-off valves AFTER the main mixing valve. If yours does, it should be stated somewhere in the installation instructions. The danger is the main valve could be left on, then both shutoffs to the two showerheads could be closed. Some main valves don't like that (well, really YOU may not like the result!) - my guess is that it will likely create a cross-over condition between the hot and cold and mess up the rest of the house. A transfer or diverter valve (under normal conditions) would always have at least one outlet open and you'd be assured of realizing the shower was still on, closing the main valve and thus preventing a cross-over situation. While you might remember to shut off the main, not everyone will, and the cross-over is a real pain. Doing it right should prevent that.
  11. ItLeaks

    ItLeaks New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    so I should use a MasterShower® 1/2" thermostatic valve- K-679-KS with 2@ 1/2" Volume control- K-681-K then ??
  12. let it flow

    let it flow New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    Hey ItLeaks,
    Did you get your problem resolved? I am trying to figure out the same exact situation.
    Is the lead content in the Moentrol the reason you can't buy it in California? Which websites did you try to order from?
    If you go Kohler, have you looked at the K-11748- ? It has a built-in diverter like the Moentrol does. (That is nice because it is one less hole in the tiles to seal and it keeps the knobs all close together.) But, [this question is open to anyone, especially the Kohler rep who lurks on this site ;) ] the K-11748 installation diagram looks like the diverter simply blocks off the flow to the outlet port on the bottom, forcing the flow thru the top port. If the diverter is open, then gravity lets all the water flow out the bottom port (to a tub spout?) and there is not enough spout back pressure for the water to climb to the shower head. Is this the way it works? The spec sheet for the K-11748 has a feature bullet point that says "Designed for showerhead and handshower applications" This is the application that ItLeaks and myself (and thousands of others) have; a rainhead and a handshowerhead (no tub spout). Or is it a poorly worded spec that should say "showerhead OR handheld, combined with a tub spout?

    And one more question: Does the K-11748 also include an on/off flow control? (Spec sheet does not mention anything.)
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