Where is water in ceiling come from?? Need HELP ASAP
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Pete147
New Member
Mime - in your experience, is the offset flange a "leaking hazard" because of how it fits/joins to the drain pipe below or because water backs up and comes out and leaks from under the toilet?
My situation appears to be something below. I plan to open the ceiling tomorrow when the plumber shows up.
I may end up cutting into the joist and building a header and removing the offset flange altogether. I want this fixed permanently.
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Code allows 15" from center to side.
For the 12" Aquia bowl, you need 11.5" from the back wall or more.
The 10" CST412MF.10 can get by with 9.5"
Normally we install those with wax on an offset flange. Unless the flange is slightly above the finished flooring, we use two wax rings stacked.
The Saniseal has a funnel that drops down the line. Not sure that's a good thing with what you have, but doubt it's the issue either.
For the 12" Aquia bowl, you need 11.5" from the back wall or more.
The 10" CST412MF.10 can get by with 9.5"
Normally we install those with wax on an offset flange. Unless the flange is slightly above the finished flooring, we use two wax rings stacked.
The Saniseal has a funnel that drops down the line. Not sure that's a good thing with what you have, but doubt it's the issue either.
Complete speculation of what's wrong until you cut ceiling open and put eyes on it at this point
It could be glue failure(or improper installation of fitting)
Cracked pipe
Or not sitting on offset properly
I would use wax without a horn
so open ceiling and see where it's leaking and hound the builder
Pete147
New Member
Ok so the original plumber that did all of the plumbing in my house stopped by the house today and we lifted the toilet. He did the "garden hose test" and ran a strong stream of water down the toilet drain for a good 15 to 20 minutes. Not one drop leaked from the drain. He looked at the offset flange and admitted that he regretted that it was installed and said we needed to get rid of it and replace it with a straight flange. We cut the bathroom tile (instead of the livingroom ceiling below) and observed after we flushed water down the drain and as I mentioned above, everything was bone dry. No water leaked from the water line supplying the toilet or the drain itself.
So the conclusion is the offset flange in certain scenarios would back up since the diameter of the opening of the flange was greatly reduced and as a result, water poured out and leaked down the outside of the drain pipe and into the ceiling below. The drain pipe should've been caulked and sealed to prevent water from going down into the ceiling, so that is something I will make sure is done properly when we install the straight flange.
My builder came over today, cut the floor exactly as requested by the plumber and we determined that if we move the toilet to the right a few inches, to the right side of the floor joist below, there is plenty of room for a straight flange. The other option we're looking at is cutting a little off the top of the i-joist (3/4 of an inch) and that will give us enough room for a straight flange to be installed an inch to the right of where the offset flange is located - so we have a couple options and will ask the builder what the preference is from a structural perspective.
The plumber will come back this Monday afternoon to install the flange, then the subfloor and new tile will be installed and then finally the toilet. I pray this is the end of my "offset/closet flange nightmare!"
So the conclusion is the offset flange in certain scenarios would back up since the diameter of the opening of the flange was greatly reduced and as a result, water poured out and leaked down the outside of the drain pipe and into the ceiling below. The drain pipe should've been caulked and sealed to prevent water from going down into the ceiling, so that is something I will make sure is done properly when we install the straight flange.
My builder came over today, cut the floor exactly as requested by the plumber and we determined that if we move the toilet to the right a few inches, to the right side of the floor joist below, there is plenty of room for a straight flange. The other option we're looking at is cutting a little off the top of the i-joist (3/4 of an inch) and that will give us enough room for a straight flange to be installed an inch to the right of where the offset flange is located - so we have a couple options and will ask the builder what the preference is from a structural perspective.
The plumber will come back this Monday afternoon to install the flange, then the subfloor and new tile will be installed and then finally the toilet. I pray this is the end of my "offset/closet flange nightmare!"
Widgit Maker
Member
I ain't buying it. Should have done the bucket flush test. I suspect you have a leaking joint at the top or upper part of a pipe joint. That would only show up with a large volume of water (like dumping a couple gallons).
I don't see any signs of purple primer on the joint between the off set flange and elbow, nor between the elbow and the pipe. The purple prime is so messy you almost can't use with out leaving signs.
Of course the plumber could have used a clear primer but inspector would not be able to see that he used primer.
Replacing the off set flange will fix a leaking joint here, but you better start checking the rest of your plumbing for the use of purple primer. With out the primer joints will fail.
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Pete147
New Member
So you don't think a hose running at full blast down the drain at 40 to 60 psi for 20 minutes would expose a leak in the drain?
If there is a bad/cracked joint in the upper portion of the drain, all of it is being replaced on Monday. As far as purple primer, this plumber used clear primer instead of purple primer likely for neatness however I prefer the purple stuff because you can't miss it. The inspector was fine with clear primer although some may require purple. On Monday the builder and I will be watching the plumber like a hawk so there will be primer applied everywhere.
If there is a bad/cracked joint in the upper portion of the drain, all of it is being replaced on Monday. As far as purple primer, this plumber used clear primer instead of purple primer likely for neatness however I prefer the purple stuff because you can't miss it. The inspector was fine with clear primer although some may require purple. On Monday the builder and I will be watching the plumber like a hawk so there will be primer applied everywhere.
Could you spot a water track if you use a bright flashlight, now that you have the floor open? Maybe you could stick a flash camera in there and get some pictures.
Since you are getting a new closet flange anyway, you would be better off getting one with a metal ring.
Since you are getting a new closet flange anyway, you would be better off getting one with a metal ring.
Pete147
New Member
I put a camping lantern down there and took a look. I don't see any water marks on the drywall below however it's had a few days to completely dry, especially today since the floor was wide open. I would've thought there would've been some evidence of staining but I couldn't see anything. Here is a picture of what I see. Don't mind the tile and saw dust caused by cutting out part of the floor today.
Widgit Maker
Member
Frankly no. You would have a stream of water flowing down the bottom of a 3' pipe about 1 to 1 1/2 inches high.
If the leak is in the off set flange/elbow/pipe it will get fixed when replacing the off set flange. If it is in the elbow where the pipe turns down into the wall it won't.
If believe you said earlier that each time you flushed you got water leaking. If so, I suggest you get a new wax ring. set the toilet back in place (and use the toilet hold down bolts) . Then flush and look under the floor for the leak.
Only cost a couple dollars for wax ring. You have pulled and set this toilet enough times it should only take you about 15 minutes.
Glad to hear that the plumber did use primer.
Widgit Maker
Member
Note.
If the off set flange was creating a back up and causing water to come over the top of the flange then clinging to the outside of the piping, it would only do that up to the first joint. At the first joint it would fall to the ceiling below. To get over the hub of the fitting it would have to go up hill.
If the off set flange was creating a back up and causing water to come over the top of the flange then clinging to the outside of the piping, it would only do that up to the first joint. At the first joint it would fall to the ceiling below. To get over the hub of the fitting it would have to go up hill.
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Pete147
New Member
I took another look this morning and vacuumed up some of the dust and that spot is not a water stain, just dust.
The pipe path you found when you cut into the floor is different than what you expected, right?
Pete147
New Member
The pipe path is almost as expected. I didn't realize there was a 90 below the offset flange and a foot or so of pipe towards the door of the water closet before it made its way out towards the exterior wall and down. It looks like the 90 and foot of pipe I refer to forms a "y" connecting the drain for the sinks and shower, I believe.
Pete147
New Member
Hi all - it's been a while since I've posted but wanted to close the loop on this thread. As mentioned a few weeks back, my plumber came by and removed the offset flange in my master water closet. Two weeks later, more water leaked out of the ceiling below. The biggest challenge was why was this leak intermittent?
I started to piece together some commonalities and the biggest one was the fact that every time I saw the leak occur over the course of the past several months, it always seemed to occur when we shut off the main water supply due to our house losing power, or the irrigation being installed, etc. I'm on a well so my water is supplied by a well pump. So I figured I'd try to recreate it. Well you know when you shut off the main water supply and then turn it back on, when you open the faucets, air sputters out for a few seconds? My theory is that one of the water supply lines must've had a change in pressure in this scenario and some how it was causing the leak to expose itself.
This past week - another leak! Well today the plumber came back over and we cut open the ceiling. We were having trouble reproducing the leak. At this point I was so frustrated. Where the heck is the water coming from!? When we were about to throw in the towel all of a sudden we saw dripping coming out of one of the hot water lines that feeds my master vanities. The odd part is where the water was dripping from the pipe (PEX), there were no connections. Upon feeling around the leak area, it was apparent that a nail from a nail gun used to hold up drywall strapping had pierced the pipe and it was only when we shut the main water off and caused a change in pressure in that line did the leaking occur.
So the good news is that we finally solved this mystery once and for all. The bad news is that I have a large hole in my ceiling and now have to find someone to fix it. Any ideas approximately what it may cost to get this patched up?
Thanks again for all of your support!
I started to piece together some commonalities and the biggest one was the fact that every time I saw the leak occur over the course of the past several months, it always seemed to occur when we shut off the main water supply due to our house losing power, or the irrigation being installed, etc. I'm on a well so my water is supplied by a well pump. So I figured I'd try to recreate it. Well you know when you shut off the main water supply and then turn it back on, when you open the faucets, air sputters out for a few seconds? My theory is that one of the water supply lines must've had a change in pressure in this scenario and some how it was causing the leak to expose itself.
This past week - another leak! Well today the plumber came back over and we cut open the ceiling. We were having trouble reproducing the leak. At this point I was so frustrated. Where the heck is the water coming from!? When we were about to throw in the towel all of a sudden we saw dripping coming out of one of the hot water lines that feeds my master vanities. The odd part is where the water was dripping from the pipe (PEX), there were no connections. Upon feeling around the leak area, it was apparent that a nail from a nail gun used to hold up drywall strapping had pierced the pipe and it was only when we shut the main water off and caused a change in pressure in that line did the leaking occur.
So the good news is that we finally solved this mystery once and for all. The bad news is that I have a large hole in my ceiling and now have to find someone to fix it. Any ideas approximately what it may cost to get this patched up?
Thanks again for all of your support!
Flapper
Member
Drywall patching is like the most DIY thing ever... why do you need to hire someone to do it?!
That damage was caused by the drywall guy, right? Or was it up to the plumber to put the PEX out of harms way?
That's a big hole that goes beyond what I would consider simple patching, I would think. Its a ceiling, not a wall. I think that would not be easy for DIY.
