When should I regenerate ?

[Alcan]

I have a new Fleck 5600 sxt water softener, size 24,000 grains.
After programming for my water hardness on a metered basis,
It shows after the initial regeneration, a capacity of 2350 gallons
before the next regeneration. Also, the day override is set to 14 days.

Well, I only use about 1500 gal./month, so just before it regenerated again
after 14 days, It still showed about 1600 gallons to go. The technician
where I bought the softener said that I should go no longer than 2
weeks between regenerations regardless of how much water capacity
I had left, otherwise it will shorten the resin life.

However, I have read elsewhere that the more often you
regenerate, the shorter the resin life.
So, which is it ?; and how often should I regenerate ?
Should I leave the day override at 14 or extend it, or
should I just turn the day override off and let the metered
amount start the regeneration ?

Thanks,
Alcan

 

[Reach4]

City water? If not, how much iron is in your water?

If city water, you could probably change to 28 or 30. However regenerating every 14 days may not be costing your much anyway.

What is your hardness H? What is your BF time? and what is the BLFC number from the sticker by the drain line? The reason for checking is to see if you might be able to use less salt per regeneration.

It would be good to get the Hach 5B softener test to quantitively test the hardness of your treated water as it approaches time to regen. Alternatively, make your own relative test with a soap solution that you drop into partially filled jar of water and shake. When the suds become less when you test, your hardness is going up.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Alcan]

City water? If not, how much iron is in your water?

If city water, you could probably change to 28 or 30. However regenerating every 14 days may not be costing your much anyway.

What is your hardness H? What is your BF time? and what is the BLFC number from the sticker by the drain line? The reason for checking is to see if you might be able to use less salt per regeneration.

It would be good to get the Hach 5B softener test to quantitively test the hardness of your treated water as it approaches time to regen. Alternatively, make your own relative test with a soap solution that you drop into partially filled jar of water and shake. When the suds become less when you test, your hardness is going up.

Well water, before installing softener, water tested:
iron 0.2 mg/L, manganese 0.5 mg/L, hardness 8 GPG.

BF = 7, BLFC ?, the # on the sticker by the drain line is 1.5 gpm.

Not so much concerned about using more salt, just
want to know if regenerating before the metered
gallons runs out contributes to shortening the resin
life or lengthens it ?
(water was still plenty soft after 14 days)

 

[Reach4]

I would not raise the DO = 14 days unless one of the pros thinks so. I am not one. You have iron and manganese, so I would wonder if even a shorter DO would not be appropriate. I am thinking about 11 as a compensated hardness, but others may think more or less than that (Fe and Mn). Gary Slusser, a proponent of using the softner for handling Fe and Mn, says that DO should be 3 or 4 if iron is 2.0 ppm or more. I have not seen a suggested curve for lesser amounts. With zero, 28 or 30 is a good DO. So 2 weeks seems reasonable to me.

I think your BLFC is 0.5 and the 1.5 is pounds of salt per minute as with this label: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/huge_5600blfc-jpg.22481/ . Based on that, I would change BF, H, and C as shown below. This will save salt. And as far as I can tell from reading, regenerating more than needed is better for the resin unless mechanical damage is being done. Maybe that is a concern. Anyway, here is my stab at where I would put the settings:

This cuts your salt use per regen more than half. I suggesting you wait for more comments before acting.

 

[Alcan]

I would not raise the DO = 14 days unless one of the pros thinks so. I am not one. You have iron and manganese, so I would wonder if even a shorter DO would not be appropriate. I am thinking about 11 as a compensated hardness, but others may think more or less than that (Fe and Mn). Gary Slusser, a proponent of using the softner for handling Fe and Mn, says that DO should be 3 or 4 if iron is 2.0 ppm or more. I have not seen a suggested curve for lesser amounts. With zero, 28 or 30 is a good DO. So 2 weeks seems reasonable to me.

I think your BLFC is 0.5 and the 1.5 is pounds of salt per minute as with this label: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/huge_5600blfc-jpg.22481/ . Based on that, I would change BF, H, and C as shown below. This will save salt. And as far as I can tell from reading, regenerating more than needed is better for the resin unless mechanical damage is being done. Maybe that is a concern. Anyway, here is my stab at where I would put the settings:
View attachment 31195 This cuts your salt use per regen more than half. I suggesting you wait for more comments before acting.

Thanks for responding,

The info on the BLFC sticker is: .50 GPM, 1.5 LBS, SALT/MIN

My settings on the Fleck are:

DF = GAL, VT = dF1b, CT = Fd, NT = 1, C = 24000, H = 10,

RS = RC (50gal), DO = 8(it was 14), RT = 2:00am,

BW = 10, BD = 60, RR = 10, BF = 7, FM = 0.7

The place where I bought the unit said my iron and

manganese are fairly low and wouldn't present a problem

and recommended day override at 14.

So, you think that I should further shorten the day override

to even less than 8 days.

My water tested: hardness = 8, iron = 0.2 mg/L, manganese = 0.5 mg/L

I don't understand your recommended setting of C = 13,600, I thought
that setting was the size of the tank, in my case, 24,000.
Or the BF setting of 3. In the service manual it says to set it to 7 for a
24000 grain tank.

Please elaborate on those settings.

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

At 15 pounds of salt per cubic feet, you get about the nominal 32000 grains of capacity per square ft. At half that amount of salt, you get way over half of the capacity.

See http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and work your way up from the table at the bottom. Note that Mn is hard to come up with a single compensation rate. There is disagreement as to the best number to use for iron. It is safer to over-compensate than to under-compensate. There are many threads on the discussion of salt use vs capacity.

If your sole concern is resin life and not salt use, you might indeed be better off with 15 pounds of salt per cubic ft. That has not been discussed that I remember.

 

[Alcan]

At 15 pounds of salt per cubic feet, you get about the nominal 32000 grains of capacity per square ft. At half that amount of salt, you get way over half of the capacity.

See http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and work your way up from the table at the bottom. Note that Mn is hard to come up with a single compensation rate. There is disagreement as to the best number to use for iron. It is safer to over-compensate than to under-compensate. There are many threads on the discussion of salt use vs capacity.

If your sole concern is resin life and not salt use, you might indeed be better off with 15 pounds of salt per cubic ft. That has not been discussed that I remember.

Thanks for the reply, but you're talking greek to me.

Basically, do I need to change any of the settings on the Fleck,
especially do I need to shorten the DO to less than 8 in order
not to destroy the resin prematurely ?

 

[Reach4]

No. I don't suspect that the settings that you list in reply #5 will destroy your resin prematurely.

 

[Bannerman]

Resin longevity is generally better than 20 years unless constantly exposed to chlorine or fouled due to iron. As your softener is exposed to a small amount of iron, you will need to preform ongoing maintenance including regular treatments using Iron-Out or a similar resin cleaner unless the iron is removed before the softener.

Regeneration will eventually result in some resin bead fracturing (mechanical damage) with the lighter broken pieces being flushed to drain during backwash. To compensate for the loss, capacity calculations are typically based on 30K /cuft instead of 32K stated in sales literature.

Your softener @ 24K grains total capacity, is a 0.75 cuft unit.

 

[Bannerman]

Utilizing the entire capacity would require 15 lbs salt /cuft of resin to restore 30K grains /cuft, but as your unit contains 3/4 cuft, your unit would require 11.25 lbs salt to regenerate 22.5K grains. That equates to only 2,000 grains per pound which is fairly inefficient. Your BF setting would need to be 7.5 minutes @ 0.5 BLFC to dissolve 11.25 lbs. but as timing settings are in full minutes... 8 minutes for 12 lbs.

Salt efficiency maybe drastically improved by regenerating at a lower consumption setting. A 1 cuft softener will need only 6 lbs to regenerate 20K grains = 3,333 grains/lb. Likewise, your 3/4 cuft softener when set to regenerate when 15K grains is utilized, should only require 4.5 lbs which equals 3 minutes BF.

Since your water contains some iron, regeneration should be more frequent and use more salt, probably equivalent to ~8 lbs/cuft which will be 4 minutes BF = 2,500 grains/lb.

Each 1 ppm of iron is equivalent to 4 grains of hardness. Each 1 ppm of manganese is equivalent to 2 grains of hardness.

Set the 'H' to 10, the 'C' to 15 and set 'BF' to 4 minutes. These settings will provide 1500 gallons per regeneration which you indicated is your water consumption per month.

While 1 month is longer than recommended when iron is involved, you could set the DO to 28 days and see how things progress, particularly if you constantly add a resin cleaner to the brine tank.

 

[Alcan]

Utilizing the entire capacity would require 15 lbs salt /cuft of resin to restore 30K grains /cuft, but as your unit contains 3/4 cuft, your unit would require 11.25 lbs salt to regenerate 22.5K grains. That equates to only 2,000 grains per pound which is fairly inefficient. Your BF setting would need to be 7.5 minutes @ 0.5 BLFC to dissolve 11.25 lbs. but as timing settings are in full minutes... 8 minutes for 12 lbs.

Salt efficiency maybe drastically improved by regenerating at a lower consumption setting. A 1 cuft softener will need only 6 lbs to regenerate 20K grains = 3,333 grains/lb. Likewise, your 3/4 cuft softener when set to regenerate when 15K grains is utilized, should only require 4.5 lbs which equals 3 minutes BF.

Since your water contains some iron, regeneration should be more frequent and use more salt, probably equivalent to ~8 lbs/cuft which will be 4 minutes BF = 2,500 grains/lb.

Each 1 ppm of iron is equivalent to 4 grains of hardness. Each 1 ppm of manganese is equivalent to 2 grains of hardness.

Set the 'H' to 10, the 'C' to 15 and set 'BF' to 4 minutes. These settings will provide 1500 gallons per regeneration which you indicated is your water consumption per month.

While 1 month is longer than recommended when iron is involved, you could set the DO to 28 days and see how things progress, particularly if you constantly add a resin cleaner to the brine tank.

Ok, I think that I see what you're saying; in other words, I'm using a lot more salt to regenerate for what water I'm using.
The H is already set to 10, so if I set the C to 15 and the BF to 4, I'll have the right amount of salt for regeneration of 1500 gallons.

Then in case that I don't use all 1500 in a month, set the DO to 28.

So, how much resin cleaner do I add, when do I add it, and where do I get it ?

And if I add resin cleaner and don't regenerate for about a month, is that better for the resin
than no resin cleaner and regenerating, say, every 8 days ?

Edit:
I just talked to a rep at the place where I bought the unit and he said that they don't
even recommend a resin cleaner unless the iron is several mg/L or more. He said that
with my iron at 0.2 mg/L, there is no need for a resin cleaner.
On the other hand, he also said that if I did not regenerate the unit at least 3 times a
month, that it would knock off years from the life of the resin.

So, now I'm just as confused as ever. Should I regenerate every week and not need to
add resin cleaner ? Or could I regenerate once a month if I added resin cleaner ?
Or should I regenerate weekly and also add resin cleaner ?

I'm also confused about the BF #. If the BF is lower than the amount of brine that's
needed to cover all the resin during the brine draw cycle, then how does the upper portion
of the resin that's not covered by the brine get regenerated ?

In other words, if I set the BF to 4, will that put enough water in the brine tank so that on the next regeneration, there will be enough brine to cover all the resin ?

Thanks,
Alcan

 

[Bannerman]

There are so many variables at play including water pH, water temperature, the disparity in iron and manganese levels, other possible minerals and contaminants present and your rate of consumption.

I'm not certain how effective a 28 day regeneration frequency will be with the small amount of iron involved, but it maybe worth a try. If an issue becomes apparent or if you prefer, the regeneration frequency can be increased (ie: decrease the DO setting, set a lower 'C' setting or raise the Hardness setting). Other posters may have other ideas and recommendations.

As you are using only 1500 gallons/mo, at the settings suggested, I expect regeneration will continue to be initiated by the DO setting as opposed to metered consumption. If your water didn't contain iron and manganese, then there shouldn't be a problem with a monthly regeneration frequency with your small softener.

Resin cleaners will typically include instructions on treatment frequency and amount. Here, resin cleaners are available at the local hardware store but I'm located in a primarily rural area where softeners are common as is iron. Another possible supplier is a water treatment equipment dealer.

As stated, resin life is often better than 20 years but maybe shorter when chlorine is a constant or iron fouling occurs. Keeping the resin clean seems to be key but as far as resin cleaner use vs a more frequent regen cycle .....

Here are two links to softener sizing and settings information:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

 

[Alcan]

There are so many variables at play including water pH, water temperature, the disparity in iron and manganese levels, other possible minerals and contaminants present and your rate of consumption.

I'm not certain how effective a 28 day regeneration frequency will be with the small amount of iron involved, but it maybe worth a try. If an issue becomes apparent or if you prefer, the regeneration frequency can be increased (ie: decrease the DO setting, set a lower 'C' setting or raise the Hardness setting). Other posters may have other ideas and recommendations.

As you are using only 1500 gallons/mo, at the settings suggested, I expect regeneration will continue to be initiated by the DO setting as opposed to metered consumption. If your water didn't contain iron and manganese, then there shouldn't be a problem with a monthly regeneration frequency with your small softener.

Resin cleaners will typically include instructions on treatment frequency and amount. Here, resin cleaners are available at the local hardware store but I'm located in a primarily rural area where softeners are common as is iron. Another possible supplier is a water treatment equipment dealer.

As stated, resin life is often better than 20 years but maybe shorter when chlorine is a constant or iron fouling occurs. Keeping the resin clean seems to be key but as far as resin cleaner use vs a more frequent regen cycle .....

Here are two links to softener sizing and settings information:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

I went to the second link and entered my information and it calculated
the salt dose = 2, salt dose capacity = 6400, grains of capacity per lb of
salt = 3200, days between regeneration = 11, gallons between
regeneration = 542

How does this relate to what I should set the C to and
what I should set the BF to ?

Also, during the 60 minute brine draw cycle, it empties the brine
tank within the first 10 minutes; during the next 50 minutes of
the brine draw cycle, is the brine just sitting in the resin tank
soaking the resin or is it being continually circulating through
the resin ?

And if the brine is just soaking the resin (I don't see how it's possible that it could
be recirculating through the resin, what would enable it to do that? ),
then wouldn't the brine fill cycle have to be long enough to fill the brine tank with
enough water to be able to cover all the resin on the next regeneration during the
brine draw cycle ?

The programming instructions in the manual I received with the unit indicate to
set the BF according to the size of the unit, which for my unit (24,000 grains) it says
to set it to 7.

So if I were to set it to a lower #, then it seems that there would not be enough brine in
the brine tank for the next regeneration to cover all the resin during the brine draw cycle.

Thanks,
Alcan

 

[Alcan]

Sorry to rehash an old post, but I wanted to get a final opinion.

I have a Fleck 5600 sxt water softener, size 24,000 grains
that I bought in Sept. this year.

The BLFC sticker reads 0.5 GPM, 1.5 lbs., Salt/min.

This is on well water and the results of the water test were:
pH = 6.8, iron = 0.2 mg/L, Manganese = 0.5 mg/L, Hardness = 8 GPG,
Hardness = 136.8 mg/L, TDS = 243 mg/L, ORP = 337 mV.

Based on the advice I receive here and from other forums, I changed
the Flect settings about a month ago to the following:

C = 19,000
H = 14
DO = 7
BW = 10
BD = 45
RR = 10
BF = 6

After a regeneration, the meter shows 1304 gal. available before
the next regeneration is due.
My water useage is less than 50 gal/day, so it's been regenerating
based on the DO of 7 days.

Well, before the last 2 regenerations, I emptied the salt pellets
from the brine tank and replaced them with iron out salt pellets.

So, after 2 regenerations using the iron out salt pellets, I decided to
change the DO from 7 to 14.

So, my question now is, considering the use of iron out salt pellets
and considering my low water usage, am I going to be knocking years
of life off of the resin by going from 7 days to 14 days between
regenerations ?

And, based on that and the current setting of the Fleck, are there any
settings that need to be changed ?

Thank you,
Alcan

 

[ditttohead]

Resin is fairly inexpensive and easy to replace. The iron our pellets should do just fine for you. If needed, a simple cleaning of the resin every couple years would not hurt. Your low pH also helps the resin last longer with the small amount of iron you have.

 

[Reach4]

I had posted a similar thing above. In the attached, I am keeping your H at 14 on this one, which is conservative.

The DO in the box is the one you discuss changing. I am not sure what would be best. Note dropping the BF to 3 to give 6 lb of salt per cuft. That change alone will use half as much salt. Others may reasonably think that 12 lb of salt per cuft is warranted. 6 pounds per cuft gives 8.89 regenerations per 40 pound bag.