What Went Wrong

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Zoomboy, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    O.K., here is my problem. Perhaps it was posted before, but I am unable to find it.

    Recently my above the ground pump (Myers HJ50D 1/2 HP), located in the basement started making all kinds of noise, which I can here being upstairs bedroom. It still pumped the water but didn't shut off, unless mechanically forcing contacts on the pressure switch to disengage. Adjusting the pressure switch didn't do any better. To stop pump from running between 30-40PSI, I had to turn out the screw #1 when finally switch disengaged. In turn this was making spring on the screw #2 (cut off) loose, therefore validating desired preset. Furthermore after unscrewing #1 my point of "cutting in" was very low, which in turn forced mi to close faucet and wait for the pressure to build up.
    So I did adjustment the way to give me higher point of "cut in" and I worked as "cut off" switch by forcing contacts on pressure switch to disengage with wooden stick.
    Finally I've changed pressure switch for the brand ned SQ D 20-40. But that didn't help.

    Everything was OK until wife caught me frequenting basement. Her sweet question, "can you do something with this?" forced me in to action.
    I did check couple of contractor for the "in ground" deal, and it runs around 6K in my neighborhood. I am about 1/3 mile from the lake and figured out, that new pump in the basement should do.

    I did find same Myers pump, but with impulse of greed, I've ordered slightly "bigger HP" unit, the Myers HJ75D 3/4 HP. Pump is exactly same, just stronger.

    My setup is as follows:

    Outside of the house I have 4" capped pipe sticking out from the ground.
    Do not have any knowledge of how deep it is.
    When pump works sometimes I can hears hiss coming from under the cap.

    InsideMyers pump seating on the top of the Flotec tank.
    Since tank get seriously rusted from the water dripping occasionally from the pump, I've decided replace both items - pump and tank
    This time I've installed Flotec FP715-08 tank and Myers HJ75D with pressure switch 20-40, and i lowered pressure on empty tank to 18PSI
    I am guessing that this pump/setup is called convertible as I have some sort of cast iron device attached to the pump which has on the front (side attached to the pump) two ports matching these on the pump.
    [​IMG]
    The back of the "contraption" is clamped with single black plastic pipe (3") going thru the wall in direction of my well.

    Headache started when I connected everything together.
    The new pump come with back pressure regulator, which I installed even I didn't have such thing before.
    [​IMG]
    Pump primed very well, but cant build more than 30PSI
    None of the adjustment on the back pressure valve or pressure switch did any difference. Also I've noticed that I do not have any water volume in the tank.
    So I figured (wrongly) out, that perhaps my pump would run better on V230
    Right now pump is running on V230, but no changes.
    After further tinkering with pressure switch I decided to eliminate the back pressure valve from the pump and go to old setup without any back pressure valve.
    [​IMG]
    This helped a little, but still cant get more than 30PSI pressure, however I fill weight of the water in the tank (which was none with the back pressure valve attached).
    This is still less than I used to get.
    I just run outside and tested my setup with garden house. Pressure is there, but after while water from the nozzle started chattering and spitting air. Pressure drops.
    Back in the basement pump kicked is running constantly at 30PSI, agin having same problem with shutoff. Only after easing off the #1 screw it stops, but then my cut-in point drops to 15PSI.

    So right now I am on no more that 30PSI pressure, with small volume of the water (tank supposedly should hold 50 gal.) with need to mechanically disengage the pressure switch.

    Any help will be GREATLY APPRECIATED.
    What did I wrong, and what are my options.
    TG is rains second day here and no need to water the garden.

    And lets keep this between us, no need for Mrs. to know ;)
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Is the jet the old one from the previous pump? I ask because it is a different colour than the pump. Probably the jet is clogged and needs to be cleaned.
  3. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Are you referring to that cast iron device between pump and wall?
    Yes it is old.
    To clean should I take it off the assembly and flush with water or some chemicals. Any movable parts in it?
  4. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Yes, you have to take it off to clean it. I don't have an IPL of your particular jet assembly, but here is one for a Sears pump.

    [​IMG]
  5. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    LLigetfa, appreciate your input.
    I'll do it today. Will post results.
    Anything else I should do, or tis is step-by-step process?
  6. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    OK, it doesn't look to sweet.
    I've disassembled the jet from the pump and attempted to move it out from the wall hook-up.
    There is (plastic?) pipe attached to the and of the jet body and somehow loosely attached deep inside that plastic pipe in the wall. I am able to pull this out for 4" and that is all. Didn't force it out as I am afraid to brake that tiny (1"-1 1/4") thin-walled pipe.
    Also I inspected that jet body, and can't see anything inside the casting, except that pipe. No valves, no ventures. Just cast iron body with some cavities inside. As it can be seen from the pics., this is some snob-nosed jet, not the kind shown on the diagram above.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    It's hard to make it out from the small pictures, but that doesn't look like a convertible shallow well jet assembly. It almost looks like a wellhead adapter for a deep well packer jet.
  8. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Here is an IPL of a vertical casing adapter and packer jet.

    [​IMG]
  9. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So, what are my options?
  10. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    [​IMG]

    That what I have outside the house.
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    My guess is that there is a packer installed into the poly pipe. Reconnect the casing adapter, remove the hose clamp and pull out the nipple to remove it.
  12. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    If that would be the case, can I revive (clean) it or it is a replacement part?
    Any idea where should I look for replacement if that would be the case?
  13. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    You should be able to clean it. Most any pump supply house would have packers and convertible shallow well jets.
  14. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    :( It is no-go. I pulled the nipple from the pipe, but it stopped after the nipple separated from the pipe, roughly 4". Insight is that darn pipe holding everything together. I tried to gently twist and pull, but is not going well. I am afraid that if I brake anything I would ended up with unearthing that pipe going from inside the basement to the well.
    Any suggestions?

    [​IMG]
  15. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Wow, that is a strange install. Maybe the packer isn't in that horizontal pipe after all. Maybe the small inside pipe goes all the way down the well and the packer is down the well where it should be.

    How far is the well from the house and does it look like it is a straight shot from that horizontal pipe to the well? What size is the well casing? Is the top of the well sealed tight with that cap? How far below grade is that horizontal pipe?
  16. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Well from the house is (from the point in the basement, where the 3" pipe goes in the wall) roughly 26' away.
    Well casing is 4".
    Cap is threaded on the top of that pipe. (thinking about this, I've mentioned that few times I did hear some hissing/air suction/ coming from under that cap when pump was running.
    As far as I can figure it out, that horizontal pipe is at least 4' below the grade (measurements + Michigan code). Outside on the top of it are perennials. :(
    If you look at that, the 3" poly pipe goes in to the basement wall perpendicular, but after exiting the wall from outside it must turn sharply to the right (looking from the basement) in order to meet the well pipe. (or it is my assumption?)
    Perhaps it curves gently over the span of 26'?

    Can you explain, how that 3" poly pipe with smaller pipe running inside it, is connected to that vertical 4" iron pipe outside? Logically it should be push-in connection, otherwise every time need for repair arise, the well must be digg out?
    Also, could that 3" poly pipe go with the angle down, from 4' at the basement wall to whatever depth of the well?
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  17. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    No, it is a mystery. On a packer jet, you have a pipe inside another pipe whereas on a normal two pipe deep well, you have them running side by side. The space between the two pipes is pressurized and the inside pipe is suction. Somewhere, it either converts to a two pipe system or else it says as one pipe inside the other. I have not heard of a packer for 4 inch casing, so maybe it converts to two pipes underground or at the well casing.

    If you hear air sucking at the well cap, then there is not likely to be a packer jet but rather, a two pipe jet. Open the top of the well and look down to see if there is a two pipe pitless.
  18. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    LLigetfa, appreciate your continuos help. I'll do this tomorrow morning, need to buy big-a.. pipe wrench. Tried the "old school" punch&hammer, but cup didn't bulge.
    Thanks again.
  19. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,055
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    After today I will be off-line for a while but hopefully someone will step up to the plate to help you.

    I wish you well.
  20. Zoomboy

    Zoomboy New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Michigan
    Thanks. Can not resist and tried to undo the cup with 3' pipe wrench. Need other one to counter the pipe rotation. It is obvious now that the 4" pipe is threaded at the bottom. When I turned the cap it rotated with the pipe. I turned it clockwise and it stopped after 1/2 turn, like it get screwed at the end.
    Tomorrow is other day.
    Have fan with your off-time.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
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