What else could it be: indirect hot water heater leaking?

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Mahnrut

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We had a new gas-fired boiler and indirect water heater installed about 12 years ago. All has been fine and we have had the system serviced annually and it has needed no repairs. A few days ago, after returning from vacation when we had lowered the water heater temperature as usual when we are away for some time, we increased the temperature and soon afterwards we noticed it was leaking from the overflow pipe. It was diagnosed as an expansion tank fail and a new #60 tank was installed. As soon as the water heated the leaking recommenced. The technician came back and said it was the other expansion tank after testing the pressure and today he installed an Amtrol ThermX and said he had never seen both go at the same time but we should not have any more problems. By this time we have spent around $1K but this is DC. We are not very happy that both were not diagnosed at the same time which might have reduced the around $400 per visit but figured if it was that unusual the technician, who we have had for years for both the heating and air systems and highly respect, could be excused for not testing both. Later today however we noticed the leaking again. We are very upset and the company got the technician to call and he said that the only thing it could be now is the valve that directly connects to the outlet pipe on the top of the water heater. Does any of his sound plausible? Thanks.
 

Dj2

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Without seeing what you have: check your house water pressure in a few locations (hose bib, washing machine). If over 75-80, you will have to reduce it. If you have a reducing valve, it may be at fault.
 

Mahnrut

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Without seeing what you have: check your house water pressure in a few locations (hose bib, washing machine). If over 75-80, you will have to reduce it. If you have a reducing valve, it may be at fault.
Thanks dj2. The technician did check the house water pressure at the first visit. Yesterday, as his boss suggested he should have done first, he checked whether the hot water temperature settings were OK which they were. In the end he changed the valve connected to the overflow pipe (valve with yellow tag in pics) and now all OK. He insisted that the 2 overflow tanks which he had changed in the days before were faulty but has anyone seen these 3 components go at the same time?
 

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Jadnashua

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The T&P valve (temperature and pressure safety valve) when they get old, and are opened, can tend to never reseal properly. If the expansion tank failed, when heating the water, the T&P valve can easily see enough pressure to cause it to open. So, if you now have a new, properly installed ET, and a new T&P valve, unless something else goes wrong, you should be good for a long time.
 

Mahnrut

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The T&P valve (temperature and pressure safety valve) when they get old, and are opened, can tend to never reseal properly. If the expansion tank failed, when heating the water, the T&P valve can easily see enough pressure to cause it to open. So, if you now have a new, properly installed ET, and a new T&P valve, unless something else goes wrong, you should be good for a long time.
The T&P valve (temperature and pressure safety valve) when they get old, and are opened, can tend to never reseal properly. If the expansion tank failed, when heating the water, the T&P valve can easily see enough pressure to cause it to open. So, if you now have a new, properly installed ET, and a new T&P valve, unless something else goes wrong, you should be good for a long time.

Thanks jadnashua. We certainly hope so!
 

Master Plumber Mark

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1000, for two thermal expansion tanks is pretty expensive

the technician should have changed the t+p valve on the first trip...that is what was leaking
It is pretty obvious he does not know what he is doing...
changing the thermal exp tanks was probably not necessary

i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y
 

Mahnrut

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1000, for two thermal expansion tanks is pretty expensive

the technician should have changed the t+p valve on the first trip...that is what was leaking
It is pretty obvious he does not know what he is doing...
changing the thermal exp tanks was probably not necessary

i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y
1000, for two thermal expansion tanks is pretty expensive

the technician should have changed the t+p valve on the first trip...that is what was leaking
It is pretty obvious he does not know what he is doing...
changing the thermal exp tanks was probably not necessary

i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y
1000, for two thermal expansion tanks is pretty expensive

the technician should have changed the t+p valve on the first trip...that is what was leaking
It is pretty obvious he does not know what he is doing...
changing the thermal exp tanks was probably not necessary

i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y
 

Mahnrut

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Yes we were not happy about the charges. The #60 tank ($50-60 retail) was around $450 installed and the other expansion tank around $400 and then the diagnostic fee to begin with came to just under 1K. I am not sure that doing it at one time would have made any difference as they use a "book price" system not "time and materials" and apparently charge the same for clients who live on their doorstep as for others 45 minutes away. After complaining we were not charged for the last visit (T+P Valve). We have only had annual servicing for the 12 years we have had the boiler and indirect water heater set up so perhaps we have been lucky in that respect as I read that the average life of expansion tanks is 5/6 years. Thanks for all the input.
 

Dj2

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"i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y "

He can ask...probably won't get anything.
 

Mahnrut

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"i would probably ask for a refund or a discount on the bill considering the guy
could have done it all in one trip y "

He can ask...probably won't get anything.
We didn't pay for the last visit (replacing the T+P valve) which the technician said was around $200.

Although we think the technician is generally very competent we don't like the "book" pricing and will look for another company for maintenance. We met this "book" pricing with a dishwasher repair and the bill for installing 2 hose straps (which could have been sent to us from the manufacturer for $6) and took 15 minutes total was $375. It was the day before Thanksgiving and we didn't have any way of knowing in advance. We complained to the company who said it was a contract when we paid but the manufacturer intervened and said the book labor time should have been 1/2 hr each strap (they charged 2 hrs labor). We eventually got $100 back from the service company (after many calls) and the manufacturer of this just over 3 years old dishwasher sent us a check for $100 with no note or anything. A motherboard went soon afterwards and after trying to give away this $1200 on purchase dishwasher on Craigslist got no takers and ditched it. We now try and steer clear of big companies that bill this way but this indirect water heater repair was our first HVAC repair in 20 years with this company who we naturally went to since they serviced the equipment. Our 20 year old central ac just went out yesterday and we have found a single guy company to come out!
 

DougB

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Our 20 year old central ac just went out yesterday and we have found a single guy company to come out!

While it sounds nice to have a 'single guy company'... If you need service and he's on vacation, ill, injured, you may not get the service you are expecting. If he doesn't charge enough, he will eventually be out of business.

More service companies are billing by the job - not the hour. People don't like $150 / hr, they would rather have a $300 'repair'. When you consider the cost of a truck, licensing, tools, wages, health care, vacation, plus overhead of an office, staff, plus some profit - it's a large cost. Additionally, nobody is billable 40 hrs a week.

I don't know what you are complaining about - only one HVAC repair in 20 years.
 

Daltex

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You sound reasonable and I'm guessing that the owner of the company would be pissed if he knew how your situation turned out. Write him a note explaining what happened and why you are leaving and he may respond or maybe not ( I would ). It's not that hard to diagnose a bad expansion tank so a competent tech would test both. I am guessing that both could have been bad for some time. At least one before the trip and then the second failed and you had high pressure that caused the T&P to blow off and the scale and lime buildup wouldn't allow it to seat. One trip and the cost for 2 exp. tank replacements and a T&P. BTW: It doesn't look like your pic of the T&P discharge pipe is to code. Should run closer to the floor (6") and I hope he used a longer reach sensor as it needs to be 6" into the tank I believe. Someone with more code knowledge may chime in for a better reply to that issue.
 

Mahnrut

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Thanks Daltex - very useful information about the possible need to lengthen the T&P discharge pipe. When our new company comes in the Fall to service the equipment we will ask him. We got someone else as the next week our ac system again 15 years old with first repair was overflowing (blocked condensate pipe which we guessed correctly but couldn't unblock it ourselves easily as discharged into second floor gutter). I will take your advice and write to the original firm who had done our servicing (no repairs ever needed) for ever. We are now wondering whether the ac condensate pipe should have been regularly blown out during service; I know they never did that. I'll see if the new one does and if not ask him. Thanks for your time.
 

Mahnrut

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Thanks Daltex - very useful information about the possible need to lengthen the T&P discharge pipe. When our new company comes in the Fall to service the equipment we will ask him. We got someone else as the next week our ac system again 15 years old with first repair was overflowing (blocked condensate pipe which we guessed correctly but couldn't unblock it ourselves easily as discharged into second floor gutter). I will take your advice and write to the original firm who had done our servicing (no repairs ever needed) for ever. We are now wondering whether the ac condensate pipe should have been regularly blown out during service; I know they never did that. I'll see if the new one does and if not ask him. Thanks for your time.

By the way the T+P valve discharge pipe is 18" off the ground. Not sure I understand the significance of this though.
 

Daltex

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HVAC annual service doesn't normally include blowing out the condensate line. Some will drop a tablet to try and keep the biofilm to a minimum. If you put a union in it so you can access it, you can use a shop vac to clear it yourself. It's not as powerful as compressed air from the nitrogen tank but if you use an air compressor you could blow loose a fitting if not familiar with the use of it.

As far as the TP discharge, outside it's supposed to be up to 2' so you can see it but when it's inside next to the tank like your's it is supposed to be closer to the floor so if it goes off while someone is standing next to it superheated steam won't burn their body. If the T&P only ever just dripped then it wouldn't matter but they are their to allow high pressure and or temp to discharge vs blowing up the tank so if it blows from that it can be very dangerous.
 
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