What actually does an uncoupling membrane do?

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by jadnashua, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    John, I've been spending too much time doing temperature controls for things like jet fired power plants, and 20,000 HP central plants. LOL
     
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    And, I'll bet systems designed today with today's state of the art, while similar, have introduced new technology for bot the construction, control, and monitoring of those plants. Does that make the old ones bad? At some point you need to assess the new and decide if it fits your needs better than the old stuff. But, some people are abjectly resistance to change, and in John's case, anything Schluter, or me! The man carries a grudge a very long way and holds nothing back, whether founded or unfounded. One of the reasons he's been banned from a few sites dealing with similar topics and responses. Check out the materials themselves, any one of us may make a mistake, our minds aren't perfect. Do some independent research, don't listen to just one person, myself included, before you make a decision. John's just got a chip on his shoulder...take it for what it's worth.
     
  3. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Intermediate.......Pause.....

    [video=youtube;4vnBpu2_A0U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vnBpu2_A0U[/video]
     
  4. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    That thing really should be making popcorn about now, Roberto. LOL
     
  5. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    Do they look beveled with lateral compression, John. LOL
     
  6. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    I am missing the popcorn smilie , Will ...LOL
     
  7. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    The answer to the OP ....unpredictable. LOL
     
  8. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Similar to these....

    [video=youtube;rEKGTq3onIo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEKGTq3onIo[/video]
     
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

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    TCNA Robinson Test shows ProVa-Flex designed better than Ditra

    This is interesting.

    Looks like the TCNA Robinson Test confirms my hunch about those special reinforcing fivers on the Dural.

    Check this out.

    Some good reading here: http://www.indianafloorsllc.com/provaflexverseditra.aspx
     
  10. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    John, do you think the profile of the mat would change at all with finish materials installed? You know I have no dog in this fight, but I can't believe there's no way for anything to bite into that stuff.
     
  11. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    My man card's secure. I carry it with me wherever I go. LOL

    I test whatever, but that'll be about as irrelevant as can be. After all this talk, I don't even know what you're testing for.
     
  12. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    Actually, I'd rather burn up some heating cable. That's my kinda test.
     
  13. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Just send them to me -- your numbers -- . I will post the same saying '' as per my test , the numbers are ....." LOL ;)
     
  14. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    John , just reversing the thinking of the application is raising questions . The theory of uncoupling and protecting it from thermal stress is just send to the back door .

    On the other hand , the exterior installation face the thermal stress from an opposite -- outside to inside -- perspective than the heated interior floors -- inside to outside -- and uncoupling is still recommended .

    And then there are the different and variable temperatures of the materials in the assembly -- concrete slab ( on grade and suspended ) , plywood substrates , mortar beds , thin set , uncoupling membrane , tiles , etc. -- , summed to real life situation -- sun exposed , shade , humidity , cold or hot temperatures , etc . --


    Usually time testing is the most relevant but for now is almost impossible to get the failures in written literature -- easily accessed -- , besides the usual '' installer error .''

    Have fun with the testing :)
     
  15. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Will , Now the wire is in direct contact -- more of the unpredictable ? -- with the uncoupling membrane , SO there is no constant -- variable wrapping -- heat sink for the entire length of the heating cable . Much worse than the embedding of the wires with SLU and cover it with the adhered -- thin setting it -- uncoupling membrane .

    But then again , it is negligible , right?
     
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    What do you think holds the cable in place? It encircles EACH tower - it snaps into place because there's a back bevel. The most any single tower could have a cable in that slot is over 90-degrees when making a corner since you cannot just run it around the post...you cannot put the heating element closer than every third slot. That slot along with the shape of the whole mat, lock the thinset and tile in place. That you don't have an open mind and can see that for yourself and have to bash others says something about your character.

    The thinset is mechanically locked in place on Ditra Heat, which holds the tile in place.

    As to overheating...you do not want any significant air space around the heating elements or they can overheat...they must be (at least for the majority) covered in thinset. Try turning on your electric water heater without filling it up first...a very dramatic example of the need to be able to conduct the heat away...works fine when covered, burns up very quickly without. You need some mass there and the plastic mat doesn't have any by design.

    Ditra, and many other decoupling membranes have those raised ridges with air space underneath them and, consider, a heating element could easily be running straight along the top of one, at least somewhere in the installation. If you put the heating mat or elements on top of the mat, you'd have the heating elements crossing or following those air spaces...a great situation for a hot spot over each one. Ditra Heat is designed with minimal direct contact of the wire and the majority of it being encased in thinset and, those spots where it might touch the mat are relatively far apart compared to the structure of other uncoupling membranes, minimizing any heat buildup at that point. It's a matter of reliability. You MIGHT be able to make it work otherwise, but it wouldn't have the reliability of an engineered solution where they take into account the heat rise and the material properties. You can do that when you produce both the heating cable and the mat so you know how it works...that is a big unknown when you try to mix and match things from various suppliers. Another reason why these things are called systems, and not just components. And, Schluter is very conservative - if you install things like they say, you have as close to 100% probability it will work as designed as humanly possible.
     
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    FWIW, I never selected that picture...one day, it appeared. Since it didn't really matter to me, I never changed it. Terry tends to add one if the user doesn't pick one.
     
  18. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    I'm sure this product went through extensive testing, but IF that mat was on a ceiling, would you stand under an 18"x18" piece of tile/stone set to it? Just out of speculation.

    I have to say, any mechanical bond to that profile looks like it'd be pretty weak. The lip has nothing to leverage against. The ridges on rebar aren't very big either, but they don't pull. Set a mat/tile on a temp board, hang it upside down, attach a suction cup and weights until it drops.

    Double or nothing a 12"x12" with any properly mixed/cured thinset will pass a garage test with a suction cup and 20lbs hanging straight down off it.
     
  19. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    It IS specific as a FLOOR warming system. Using it elsewhere would not conform to the intended use. A good uncoupling membrane makes the tile/thinset layer much closer to a floating floor than any bonded system, minimizing any shear stresses, which is one reason why a good unmodified way exceeds the requirements to hold anything in place (an unmodified's minimum bond strength is 150psi, and a good one can double that putting it at over 5x the bond strength of the membrane), and that's what gives it the benefits...gravity does much of keeping things where you want, with the shape of the mat taking care of the rest, isolating it from the subfloor. The industry spec for this type of thing is a minimum of 50psi - it doesn't matter what the size of the tile is. I haven't seen test results for this mat, but feel very confident that it exceeds the industry standards.
     
  20. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    How squishy is that mat? Is it as soft as say, Johns hands? He sure has pretty fingers. LOL
     
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