Well stopped pumping 2 days ago, I need help......

[FishinFirefighter]

Well stopped pumping 2 days ago, I found out real quick how unprofessional and lazy the well servicers are in my area after countless calls and messages left and what seems like no one wanting to get off their cheeks to come make a dollar...
Anyway I decided maybe I'll just fix it myself. I'm not savvy to the jargon or well terms but it's not pitless I have a well house and its all available to work on ground level. Home was built in 2007 along with the well, control box is 2 years old it's a 3 wire pump and everything tests like it should so I can rule that out I'm not sure if the pump was replaced with the box or not since we bought the home from the bank. The box hums when on, no breakers trip OR the two reset buttons pop. It's definitely pulling a load but I get nothing, no water. Multimeter shows its sending 240v down to the pump but I don't have a ampmeter.
Coming from the well casing is galvanized does this indicate the entire depth is also galvanized? I rounded up some friends with promises of endless beer and pizza to just man handle it out......it didn't even budge after loosening the seal and prying it up with a prybar it feels HEAVY. One of the well companies said the Wells around my area are 200-300' deep and if it's PVC vs galvanized it may weigh too much to do it myself.

I've been quoted from $1500 to $4000 ALL FOR THE SAME EXACT thing from these people. In-laws were charged $2400 for a 3hp pump/motor not including labor or other parts and I couldn't find the exact model they got listed for more than 1300 ANYWHERE on the internet which makes me cringe to think I may have to hand over my hard earned money for someone to double parts cost on top of $95/hr labor to Rob me. Im very handy and do nearly everything DIY since I don't trust "pros" anymore with anything I own.

 

[Valveman]

You can't prize up the top of a well seal. You just loosen the bolts and the well seal comes up when you pull up on the pipe. 1 1/4" steel pipe full of water weighs 2.93# per foot, plus the pump and wire. Gonna weigh 600-1000 pounds. Even PVC will weigh 300-500 pounds that deep. That is probably why the local guys are expensive and hard to get along with. They know you can't do it without them. That being said, a good pump man is worth whatever he is asking. Unfortunately there are very very few good ones left. You may need to be the brains and just let them do the labor. But either way you are wise to educate yourself on the subject. If the galv pipe has a hole in it, it will probably be right at the check valve on the pump, because the pump man did not know to tape over that area with electric tape. Keep us informed and we will try to answer your questions and help you out.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[FishinFirefighter]

When I pull the cap off the elbow coming from the well pipe theres water all the way up to the top which would indicate the check valve is working I would think. Im thinking one of the wires chaffed or disconnected down at the pump or somewhere along the way. Its the only thing that makes sense to me. Each leg is getting 120v at the wiring for a combined 240v heading down to the pump but the pump doesent turn on. I would think if the pump were seized or had grounded windings that the overloads or the breaker would trip.
Ive scheduled for one of them to come out monday and pull it up. After its up Im going to inspect the pump myself. If the pipe happens to be PVC I may just cut the visit short with them and do the work of lowering it down and replacing whatever is wrong by myself depending on the depth. Even if its costs me AS much in parts as paying them to do it Id rather go that route for the peace of mind.

Is there a way to measure depth of water and the well depth with all of it in place? To select the right pump from what I gather I need those depths to calculate the pump curve if the pump is shot. I really have no intention on just assuming whatever they have "in stock" and ready to put back down there is the correct pump. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

Each leg is getting 120v at the wiring for a combined 240v heading down to the pump but the pump doesent turn on. I would think if the pump were seized or had grounded windings that the overloads or the breaker would trip.

When you isolate the wires up top, what are the three wire-to-wire resistances for the red, yellow, black? What is the resistance for one of those wires to a water pipe ground?

Is there a 4th (green) wire going into the well?

 

[FishinFirefighter]

I decided to go ahead and purchase an good quality Amp Meter so I get get some good reliable readings and heres what I came up with.

NO CONTINUITY whatsoever from Yellow OR black to ground(Green). Red shows continuity.
About 12v and roughly 5Amps going to the pump from the Red wire
Zero Amps from Yellow or black even though they both have 122v +/- and combined 245v from L1 to L2 at the control box.

I think I might be in good shape based on those readings, I might just have a disconnected L1 & l2 down there. Sounds promising?? Like I said before, if it were a shorted motor or a seized motor Id be popping breakers and/or pulling some amps. Fingers crossed..

I think thats all the testing I can do short of havin git all above ground but if theres any other tests I can do please let me know. Thanks!

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Pictures are worth a thousand words. It's very helpful for any of use to offer advice when we know what you are looking at.

If your control box has 2 reset buttons it's a most likely a 3HP or larger pump. That increases the chances it's on galvanized pipe quite a bit. I would highly recommend against trying to pull a steel pipe system without the right equipment and lots of experience.

The problem could still be the control box. That would be your best case scenario.

A two year old control box on a 9 year old well is rather odd maybe the pump was replaced 2 years ago. I'd expect better life expectancy out of anything used.

If they used multiple check valves it's possible for water to be up top but still be leaking at the pump. However it doesn't matter in your case, if the pump was running it would be drawing amps.

Just wanted to throw out some perspective on costs. It wouldn't be shocking to me if a company charged MSRP on a high end pump and it came to $2400. MSRP on a 7GPM 3HP pump would be about $2400 on any of the high end brands. That's a pump meant for depths in excess of 600ft. A 25gpm 3HP is one of the cheaper 3HP and their MSRP is still going to be a few grand.

 

[FishinFirefighter]

Okay, ill post some pics soon.

They charged them $2400 for a 3hp Goulds by the way...same exact model number pump/motor WITH control box included (which the well company must've kept because they didn't replace theirs) can be found for 1500 everywhere I've looked online. Or 12-1300 for pump/motor without the box. Their original motor was only 6 years old and still worked but the wiring pulled because they didn't secure it to the pipe well enough but the well guy persuaded them into a new pump when it worked just fine. That's the kind of companies I have to deal with out here...my neighbor had their pump replaced after 4 years as well. Total garbage if you ask me. Almost like they're purposely sabotaging these installs to crap out within 5 years for job security.

 

[Reach4]

Is this an irrigation well? Big lawn watering well? Or is is a more modest-use well? A 3 HP pump is pretty large for a house, even if the static water level is 200 ft down.

I think I might be in good shape based on those readings, I might just have a disconnected L1 & l2 down there. Sounds promising??

Something is wrong down there. Normally there would be less than 10 ohms red-black-blue. You can find resistance numbers in the Franklin AIM manual. Also add for the wire resistance.

What resistance to ground do you see for the red to ground? 2o0 K ohms? 2o K ohms? 20 ohms? Yes, the red could have broken off and be contacting steel or even just water.

It seems possible that the pump is OK but the wire is not. I am not saying that is likely. My comments are not based on experience.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Okay, ill post some pics soon.

They charged them $2400 for a 3hp Goulds by the way...same exact model number pump/motor WITH control box included (which the well company must've kept because they didn't replace theirs) can be found for 1500 everywhere I've looked online. Or 12-1300 for pump/motor without the box. Their original motor was only 6 years old and still worked but the wiring pulled because they didn't secure it to the pipe well enough but the well guy persuaded them into a new pump when it worked just fine. That's the kind of companies I have to deal with out here...my neighbor had their pump replaced after 4 years as well. Total garbage if you ask me. Almost like they're purposely sabotaging these installs to crap out within 5 years for job security.

Goulds specifically carries no warranty if you buy them online so I'd recommend against that. As I said a company charging MSRP isn't that unreasonable, it's certainly not fair to expect them to match an online dealer that will do nothing to back the product. A Goulds lasting only 4-6 years is a bit troubling. If you don't trust the companies in your area look further out. Plenty of companies are willing to travel, especially ones that also do their own drilling.

 

[Craigpump]

It's not uncommon for pump installers to sometimes triple their cost on materials, that's how we pay our overhead. You know advertising, lights, vehicle registrations, insurances etc. Don't forget we have to maintain inventory so we can get our customers fixed up as quickly as possible. If we don't have the required materials, we charge our time to go to the supply house.

$95 an hour per man seems very reasonable especially if they're including the a fully stocked hoist truck in with that labor rate. An apprentice pump tech here in CT gets up to $17.50 an hour (state mandated), while someone who holds a J2 might get $23.00 or more. The employer also pays out for health insurance, workers comp, vacations, holiday pay.......

We also deserve to make a profit. Most of us have dedicated the same amount of time and expense to our chosen field as lawyers, doctors, accountants, dentists etc. Plus we are available holidays, weekends, during birthday parties, after dinner.....
Try getting your accountant or lawyer after hours!

You might get lucky and pull that by yourself, but if you drop it down the well, you'll be paying even more to have someone come in and fish it out. At that point you can almost bet your invoice will be for time, materials and possibly some some G&A tax added in.

My advise is to find the guy with the best reputation, the best guarantee in writing using the best materials and let him do it.

To quote my late father, " good work isn't cheap & cheap work isn't good".

 

[Valveman]

It sounds like you are getting power to the control box, but there is no power going from the control box to the pump. I would never pull a pump until I was SURE the control box was good. Take the wires out of the control box and check with an ohm meter. Check ohms from red to black, red to yellow, and yellow to black. The 2 lowest readings should add up to the highest like 3,4, and 7. Then there should be no continuity from any of these wire to ground on the ohm meters most sensitive scale. If this checks out, try a new control box. It should be pulling some amps, tripping the overloads in the control box, or something.

 

[FishinFirefighter]

I just measured the well depth, its raining outside so I just measured the depth to pump from inside the well pipe then it got too nasty out to measure the water depth. 340ft down she goes. I was hoping more around 200ft for more pump options. If the motor is bad that narrows my options to 2hp+ from what I gather. Whats the "go-to" brand for these pumps so I can match a curve and start shopping just incase?

Also, for what its worth prior to this I was getting about 8-9GPM 55-60psi through my water softener so with the depth coupled with that flow it must be a 2hp down there now.

 

[FishinFirefighter]

This is inside the well house, I have the box off to the side and wires not connected because I was testing.

 

[Reach4]

I just measured the well depth, its raining outside so I just measured the depth to pump from inside the well pipe then it got too nasty out to measure the water depth. 340ft down she goes.

Are you saying the pump is 340 ft down, or are you saying that the static level of the water is 340 ft down? It is the static level of the water that is the main factor in picking a pump, although you would like the pump to pump some water if the water level did drop to the pump.

 

[Valveman]

If the pump is set at 340' and you want 8-9 GPM at 50 PSI, look for a pump that will do 8-9 GPM from a total head of 450'. Goulds and some other pumps are OK but I prefer Grundfos.

 

[Reach4]

Here are tables for some nominal 10 GPM pumps. They correspond to the curves but are easier to use. The numbers in the table are the GPM for a given total head from the top of the water to the pressure switch.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

I just measured the well depth, its raining outside so I just measured the depth to pump from inside the well pipe then it got too nasty out to measure the water depth. 340ft down she goes. I was hoping more around 200ft for more pump options. If the motor is bad that narrows my options to 2hp+ from what I gather. Whats the "go-to" brand for these pumps so I can match a curve and start shopping just incase?

Also, for what its worth prior to this I was getting about 8-9GPM 55-60psi through my water softener so with the depth coupled with that flow it must be a 2hp down there now.

First look up. For the pump to be on steel or PVC there had to be 25 feet of clearance straight above the well. Sometimes if the well has to be in a building there will be a hatch so we can pull or set pipe. It's also possible the building wasn't thought through and they put it over the well after the pump was set. My guess is it's on HDPE which wouldn't fit through the seal so they had to nipple through the seal, that's why it looks as is. HDPE would be flexible enough to make it out the door.

You can try to confirm whats under the seal in a few ways, siphon some water off the top and look down the pipe with a light, stick a long screw driver thought and feel for a coupling or joint also feel if it's metal, use a magnet stick to feel if it attaches to anything a few feet down. The main goal is to figure out if it is steel pipe or not. If there is any chance it's steel pipe you don't try to lift it without a pump hoist or crane.

You only know there is a stop at 340ft. It is probably the pump but it could also be an inline check valve.

The HP is listed right on the control box. I can't make it out clearly but it looks like 2HP. It's possible they used an oversized control box but highly unlikely. The wire used looks like #10 which would be appropriate for a 2HP at 340 ft. If it was only providing 8-9 GPM I'd guess it was a 7GPM pump. That's a CentriPro control box so it's probably a Goulds pump. A Goulds 2HP 7GPM 3 wire pump is a 7GS20412. If the pump is under 10 years old I'd probably just swap the motor assuming the wet end isn't dragging.

I don't know what your water needs are like but usually something smaller would be sufficient for a house. 2HP pumps are rare for me they are typically too big for a house and too small for irrigation systems. The water level makes a big difference for determining what pump you need.

There are a dozen go-to brands. All with similar longevity and performance.

The picture makes me ask questions, I don't expect you can answer. If your only moving 8-9gpm why did they use 1 1/4. If it's not on galvanized pipe why did they use galvanized fittings? Is that control box just mounted on the nipple?

Why haven't you got a professional out there yet? Don't you like bathing?

 

[FishinFirefighter]

First look up. For the pump to be on steel or PVC there had to be 25 feet of clearance straight above the well.
The picture makes me ask questions, I don't expect you can answer. If your only moving 8-9gpm why did they use 1 1/4. If it's not on galvanized pipe why did they use galvanized fittings? Is that control box just mounted on the nipple?

Why haven't you got a professional out there yet? Don't you like bathing?

There is a hatch above the casing in the roof, not quite sure why the pipe is 1 1/4, yes the box is mounted to the wiring nipple and YES LOL we do like bathing. Fortunately our neighbor is nice enough to allow us to use his pressure in the meantime. We have a hose with a double female connected to an outside spicket from his house to ours and Ive shut off the valve to our well and water softener so we still have water. Well guy said tomorrow or tuesday latest.

Im sure he will try to convince me to replace motor AND pump while its out, but if the pump is only 2-3yo which I suspect I dont plan to replace it. What are some things I should look at while its out to determine if it needs replacing? A local guy told me usually in our area the first pump doesent last very long because our area is very sandy and has to "clean" out the new well but the second pump lasts a loooonng time typically.

 

[Valveman]

Make sure he ohms it out, and if the ohms are good try a new control box before pulling the pump. If the pump has to come out, cut the wire at the splice to the motor and ohm it again. That way you can tell if the problem is in the motor or in the wire. If the problem is in the motor, you can visually check the pump, but it would be best to pit test it with the new motor before putting it back down the well. If pit testing is going to cost another service call and pit test charge, some times it is the same money to just replace the pump with a new one.

And whatever you have to do to the pump/motor, you need to study what happened to the old one so it doesn't happen again. If it was sand that wore it out, maybe they are right that the next pump will last longer as the sand should be gone. But if it was just a motor problem, cycling on and off was probably the cause of failure, and that problem needs to be solved before it happens to the next pump.

 

[FishinFirefighter]

Well my ass is gonna hurt for a few weeks from that raping.........$2700 installed for a new pump set that I helped pull up and put back down. Original price was $3k but he buckled when I told him how cheap I could purchase the pump set for. My wife absolutely would not budge on letting me do it after it was up no matter how much we wouldve saved which drives me NUTS. I foresee a month of animosity towards her for this.
I said considering the 360' depth we could EASILY use a 1 1/2hp motor......he said it would be like $150 off "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Fine, throw the 2hp back in then" Im not happy right now as you can tell...not one bit. I just handed over nearly $3k of my hard earned money for someone to nearly triple the cost of parts.....I wish I never even looked up the cost of the pump set to begin with SOB!!!!

New pump set was a franklin 230v 2HP motor and a goulds 10gs-20 wet end. We measured flow after install and it flowed 15GPM which is complete overkill but for $150 more vs th 1 1/2hp set....whatever i guess