Well Pump Tripping Circuit Breaker

[DonL]

A amp meter would tell you a lot.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8760


Good Luck.

 

[Valveman]

Breakers get weak and cause nuisance trips. But like DonL says, you won’t know if that is the case without an ampmeter.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[OnlyWhnChasd]

Okay, I'll definitely check that out. Thanks for the link, DonL!

 

[DarthMeriz]

I know this is an old thread, but in searching for a fix on my submersible issue - I've found this and experiencing the same and/or similar problems you had (OnlyWhnChasd). Can I ask if you found the solution to your problem? I've already changed my pump as well as the GFCI breaker, but it still trips after prolonged use - and normally once every couple of days. Concerned I may have had a nick in my wire somewhere, but you would think if that were the case, I wouldn't be able to turn the breaker back on. Feel like it's an overload issue of some type, but electrician is scratching his head on it as well - I've asked him to change the control box - but wondering if it could be my pressure tank as it's older and sized for the jet pump I was previously using. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you. (1/2 horse franklin electric sub with 3 wire into lake on 30 amp 2 pole breaker and control/disconnect box - and GFCI, which is now code in Ontario)

 

[Reach4]

I know this is an old thread, but in searching for a fix on my submersible issue - I've found this and experiencing the same and/or similar problems you had (OnlyWhnChasd). Can I ask if you found the solution to your problem? I've already changed my pump as well as the GFCI breaker, but it still trips after prolonged use - and normally once every couple of days. Concerned I may have had a nick in my wire somewhere, but you would think if that were the case, I wouldn't be able to turn the breaker back on. Feel like it's an overload issue of some type, but electrician is scratching his head on it as well - I've asked him to change the control box - but wondering if it could be my pressure tank as it's older and sized for the jet pump I was previously using. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you. (1/2 horse franklin electric sub with 3 wire into lake on 30 amp 2 pole breaker and control/disconnect box - and GFCI, which is now code in Ontario)

This would have been better with a new thread.

1. With the GFCI breaker open (off), what resistance do you measure on either of the hots to ground?
2. When the pump is working, how how many seconds does the pump run at a minimum?

 

[Valveman]

Just get a normal breaker and do a way with the GFI.

 

[DarthMeriz]

Thanks for the quick replies to both of you! Sorry, yes - but I figured alot has already been discussed and explained in the original thread that applies to my problem - so I figured it would be easier than trying to explain it all over again, but my apologies. I'm a newbie.

I will have to have to get my electrician to measure the resistance. Thanks for that - I am looking for avenues to suggest to him because he's not sure what the problem could be.

I will monitor the pump tonight and determine length of run time.....after finding and reading this thread, I've got a list of to-do's tonight.

Valveman, I thought of that and it's been suggested to me - only problem is that my pump is in the lake, so as a safety precaution, I don't want to run it without and then have an injury. The lake will soon freeze over so I could do that to get me through the winter, but in the summer months, I worry that not having a GFCI could cause a problem if my short is in the lake somewhere.

 

[Reach4]

I will monitor the pump tonight and determine length of run time.....after finding and reading this thread, I've got a list of to-do's tonight.

The reason for that is to see if your pressure tank is an issue. That is not likely to be the cause of your breaker tripping, but it should be checked anyway. Par is a minute or more. 30 seconds is not good but not horrible. If it was going really quickly, maybe that could trip a breaker. I don't know.

I will have to have to get my electrician to measure the resistance. Thanks for that - I am looking for avenues to suggest to him because he's not sure what the problem could be.

Here is the deal... After isolating the wiring from power connections, the resistance to ground should be higher than 100,000 ohms on a new install.

I suggest you download the Franklin AIM manual. Page 46 and 47 of the 2015 edition describes the "Insulation Resistance" test. They recommend using a megohm meter with a 500 volt or more voltage to the circuit being tested. A regular ohmmeter may do the job.

In short, there should be 500,000 ohms or more resistance from a well power wire to a ground. To trip a GFCI breaker, you would need something under 100,000 ohms (100 kilohms). For insulation, high ohms is good.

So are you prepared to pull the pump out of the water as your guy measures? As the area with the bad insulation comes up, you could see the resistance improve. That would tell you about where the electrical leak is. It may be that the problem is a wire splice, and some good electrical tape might cure the problem. The problem could be in the pump, and that means that adding insulation will not do it for you.

There is a slight possibility that the trip is coming from overcurrent rather than an electrical current leak. That is very unlikely with a 1/2 HP 230 volt pump on a 30 amp breaker. A 15 amp breaker would be normal for that. Putting in a regular breaker over the winter, and having it trip or not, could distinguish this.

If you have a nearby friend who dabbles in electronics, he could probably help you troubleshoot this.

 

[DarthMeriz]

Thanks Reach. Much appreciated - I've googled and found the manual, thanks for that.
I don't think I can pull the pump out now at this point - water is getting cold and I've run the water line inside of a Big O pipe that will be too heavy to lift out of the water without getting in. I'll have to get my electrician involved but before I do that I will report back here with my findings tonight. Again, I appreciate the time and help.

 

[DarthMeriz]

Good Morning,
I timed the pump last night with the shower running and it was approx. 15-20 seconds run time vs 1 min and 40 seconds off.
The breaker actually tripped while I was timing the 3rd try - I believe it tripped when the pump tried to turn back on - not mid-pumping.
Plumber forgot to put a pressure gauge in but I believe I`m set at 50/30

Are those okay run/stop times?

 

[Valveman]

There is no such thing as "okay run/stop times". Any cycling on and off is bad for the pump. When drawing full load amps, 1 minute run time is minimum, 2 minutes is better, and running continuous while using water is best. You need a pressure tank 3-4 times as large as the one you have, or use a Cycle Stop Valve and a small tank is all you need.

I have never had any luck using a GFI on a well pump. My pool guy told me you could hold a hot wire in one hand, and when you jump in the pool a GFI will trip before you get shocked. I am not going to try this but if a GFI is that sensitive, a motor or wire under water may have small enough resistance to cause it to trip.

 

[DarthMeriz]

Thanks valveman. So I guess my pump running for 15 to 20 second blasts every couple of minutes is not a good thing - thought the delay time in between was good as my Jet Pump I used before that would run longer (1 min or so) and a min or two between runs.
Thanks for the link to the Cyclestopvalves.com - I'll look into that first as I'm a bit limited on space for a larger pressure tank - the one I have is approx. 3'ft x 2ft wide. Do you think that it could be tripping with something to do with the Pressure Tank?

 

[Valveman]

Do you think that it could be tripping with something to do with the Pressure Tank?

No! A GFI trips because it sees a ground fault (short) or because the amps are too high.

 

[Reach4]

'll have to get my electrician involved but before I do that I will report back here with my findings tonight.

You should buy an inexpensive electronic multimeter. Play with the resistance readings. Grasp the probes with your dry and wet fingers. Get a feel for resistance numbers. You cannot get hurt if you are not getting into powered equipment.

You may or may not decide to then probe powered things. If you do that, only hold the insulated part of the probes when you probe the powered equipment. You can still have your electrician do your work on the powered stuff.

 

[LLigetfa]

A GFI can false trip from the induced voltage spike from the collapsing magnetic field when a motor stops. I often see it with power tools. I would not use a GFI on a pump.

 

[Reach4]

A GFI can false trip from the induced voltage spike from the collapsing magnetic field when a motor stops. I often see it with power tools. I would not use a GFI on a pump.

That makes sense. A suitable EMI filter, with inductors and capacitors inside, between the pressure switch and the breaker would probably protect against that.

https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-2090/
https://www.mouser.com/Connectors/Power-Line-Filters/_/N-71w5m

 

[DarthMeriz]

Thanks guys - I appreciate all the input, information, and help. LLigetfa, I notice you are in Ontario - I agree, I would like to remove the GFI as well, but I'm told that it has recently become code in Ontario and the pump draws from a lake that we, and others swim in.....and in relatively close proximity to where the pump is - so I don't want to chance an injury on my neighbours or ourselves.

Thanks valveman. I just wanted to make sure that the short run times of my pump, which have to do with my pressure tank, wasn't causing another unforeseen problem with the electrical.

Thanks Reach. I will look to buy one and see what I can discover for myself. As for the EMI filter - I've sent this info onto my electrician as something to try. Again, we've changed out the Pump already and the GFCI. The next step was changing out the control box but he didn't think it would be the likely cause. I'll get a price on one of these and if they are inexpensive to try - we'll start there instead.

Thanks again all - will report back once we've tried the next step. Pain in the ass having the water run out mid-shower, but hoping to figure it out before the snow flies!

 

[Reach4]

I am wondering if a control box with both a start and run capacitor would fix that. Goulds CB07412CR.


Even though one side of the capacitor only goes to the run winding, I am thinking that the run capacitor might eat up the inductive kick that might be triggering your GFCI. My comments on this are not based on experience by me or anything I read. It just seems like it might do the job.

The controllers with the separate run capacitor are normally used to get a little better electrical efficiency.