Well Pump Short Cycling Issue

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Dilan

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Hi everyone,

A few questions about a well system in my house. The pump seems to only run for a few seconds at a time, so I'm thinking it's a tank issue but I'm not positive. I know that this is very bad for the pump so I'm looking into fixing it before the pump burns out. Since I recently acquired this house I'm not too familiar of what the details are on the pump or anything. I just don't want to pull the tank up that 7 foot ladder to find out that it's not the issue.

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Photos of well chamber

I'm thinking maybe the tank is bad (since it's original to 1972) and maybe not holding the air charge like it's supposed to. Probably a CSV wouldn't be a bad idea but there isn't much room on the old pipes to mount one and I have no idea what kind of submersible is mounted on that pipe, and I don't want to pull it for no reason. I heard some new pumps with floating impellers don't get along with backpressure and low-gpm loads.
 

Reach4

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1. Odds are high that the problem is the pressure tank. Turn off the pump, and open a faucet until the faucet stops flowing beyond a drip. Measure the precharge air pressure. If water comes out, that means the tank should be replaced. If the pressure is very high (unlikely), you would let the right amount of air out. You can work around a problem temporarily by adding air to the tank. The normal precharge is 2 PSI lower than the cut-on pressure for the pump switch.

2. If you ever get standing water in your pit that rises up to the bottom of well seal, note that those well seals often leak. You should get things fixed. We can discuss how that would happen. Maybe put an aspirin tablet or a laundry detergent pod in a saucer on the floor of the pit to detect if you ever get standing water.
 
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Valveman

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That is an old galvanized tank. You just need to add air to it regularly. It should have a Schrader valve like where you air up a car tire on one of the fittings. Turn off the pump, drain the water out of the tank, and while the faucet is open use a compressor to add air to the tank to force the water out the faucet. Then close the faucet and turn the pump back on.

If you switch to a CSV you only need a 4.5 gallon size tank, so you would have lots of room. And any pump that old is not going to have a problem with the CSV. It is only the new Franklin pumps that are designed to fail if restricted.
 

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There's no air valve on the top of the tank that I can see. Maybe it's not a precharged tank that requires AVC bleeders on the pipe? hmmmm, that could be the issue, it was converted from the original jet pump to the submersible that's in there now some time ago and maybe that was overlooked.
 

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No that is not a pre-charged tank, and there is no air valve on top of the tank. There can be an air valve (Schrader) on any on the pipe fittings and it would still force air into the tank. If there is no air valve, you can add another 1/4" tee and nipple at the pressure gauge and install an air valve there. But you are either going to need to fix a way to add air to that tank regularly or switch it out to a bladder tank (pre-charged) like the one that comes with the CSV in the Pside-Kick kit, which is used to replace big tanks like that and turn it into a constant pressure system.
 

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The well is pretty heavy in iron sediment, how well does the PSIdekick system handle these deposits? And can it be adjusted for a 30/50 psi system easily?
 

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The well is pretty heavy in iron sediment, how well does the PSIdekick system handle these deposits? And can it be adjusted for a 30/50 psi system easily?

The Pside-Kick will work fine with iron. But if you switch to a bladder style tank the iron will not get exposed to air, which helps precipitate the iron out of solution. Probably just need to add an air valve, get a little compressor, and add some air regularly.
 

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Figured that I'd give an update. I drained the tank down to zero pressure and then turned the pump on and let it refill. It allowed the pump to run for more than 15 seconds at a time for about two weeks. Then it suddenly started short cycling, and now the pump only runs for 3 seconds at a time. I shut it off for now. So now I'm looking at getting a new tank, but I measured it, and the tank is almost 5 inches wider in diameter than the manhole opening. It quite literally can't be pulled up and "replaced" in that location.

Here's what I'm thinking. I could tee off just after the flex line in the basement and put the new tank there. Then just disconnect the old and put a plug in the line going to it. But there's one issue. There's a separate branch from the power meter to the well pit which runs to the pressure switch. The well pit is below the house's breezeway, which is about 7-10 feet from the outer wall of the basement. So it would be a pain to run a wire through the cavity from the vault to the house for a pressure switch.

Which leads to a question. Would it hurt to keep the pressure switch in the pit with the well head, and have the pressure tank in the basement of the house? Or would I have to install the pressure switch on the same tee as the tank?
 

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Which leads to a question. Would it hurt to keep the pressure switch in the pit with the well head, and have the pressure tank in the basement of the house? Or would I have to install the pressure switch on the same tee as the tank?
You must have a pressure tank at the pressure switch. You might have another tank elsewhere, but the pipe must not let there be a lot of pressure difference.

Did you understand the bit about the Pside-Kick that there is just a tiny tank together with the whole assembly?

If you want to have the pressure switch inside, no new buried wires are needed. Just switch the power to the wires that are going to the pit now.
 

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If you want to have the pressure switch inside, no new buried wires are needed. Just switch the power to the wires that are going to the pit now.

That's the problem. There are no wires from the basement to the pit. It is a mobile home with a cutoff box below the meter on a pole. There are a few breakers in the shutoff box. A double-pole 20 amp goes from the cutoff box goes straight from there to the well pit, into the pressure switch, then is switched from the pressure switch down to the submersible pump.

The only thing running from the house to the pit is the water line. There are no electrical wires running from the house to the pit. I drew a diagram to clarify.
 

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Reach4

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OK... the blue curved lines represent the pipe.

edit.... OK, I just looked at your pictures.

It looks like the picture was taken in the middle of making some changes... I expect G gets connected to H somehow.

I had my well pit demolished and the casing extended above ground. There was water rising at times in the pit and the well seal was not waterproof.

As far as you can find, there is no Schrader valve or similar. If so, you could add air manually. Is there th

What is E?

How big is the manhole? How much free space is above the tank?

img_1.jpg
 
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Dilan

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Edit: No changes. That's how it was when I had purchased the house.

In your picture, A is the well head with a turn valve on top.
B: Valve handle
C: Well casing lid
D: Pressure switch with schrader valve hidden under on a tee.
E: Tee going into the tank.
F: Drain Valve
G: Plugged line. Not sure where it had originally gone to.
H: Plugged line running into the wall. Not sure where it runs to. The direction it's running into is about where the crawlspace is under the addition in the diagram.

In attached picture:
A: Pressure tank
B: Pressure switch with schrader valve under
C: Power line running from cutoff box
D: Tank drain valve
E: Water line running to house
F: The line is plugged at that end.
G: Line is plugged at pit end. Don't know where the other end is. If I could locate it perhaps I could use it to run power to well pump from a pressure switch in the basement. But I have no idea where to find it.
 

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Dilan

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It doesn't necessarily have to have a cycle stop valve. I'm willing to install a large bladder tank without one if I have to.

Edit: Adding air manually temporarily fixes the short cycle issue. But it comes back.
 

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If you switch to a bladder style tank you will need to make sure there is no bleeder orifice 5' down the well. It doesn't matter if you use a CSV and a small bladder tank or a large bladder tank with or without a CSV, you don't want a bleeder orifice putting air into the bladder.
 

Dilan

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I had a plumber come out who specializes in well systems. They believe that it was originally a jet pump that was DIY changed to the submersible pump it has now. Their reasoning for that is the tank is showing no signs of degradation, leakage, rust, nothing. Yet the tank water logs itself after a few weeks of usage. Topped with the fact the piping to the well is a different shade than the rest of the piping, and the screw holes in the brick indicates an outlet block. They felt the tank, of course water logged, then they listened to the pump cycle on and off about 10 times and realized that there's no "gurgle" when the pump switches on, just the click of the pressure switch. Also there is no above surface check valve, and the flex line is visible (typically systems with bleeders have a 5' solid pipe for the bleeder, than a flex line afterwards). They turned the valve at the top on and off a few times, and there was no air charge at all. All of those combined they're confident that there is no bleeders in the system.

New tank is in, it fit down the man hole and is mounted on top of the old tank. The old tank is not coming out until I can get someone to come down with a torch to cut it out piece by piece. The new tank barely fit down the hole but fits on the old tank with plenty of room to spare. I decided to have them put in a new pressure switch while everything is apart which is mounted to the tank tee and pressure is more consistent in the house.
 
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