Water Softner White Residue

[daniboi81]

Something that’s been nagging me regarding the softened is the white residue the softened water leaves behind after it dries. It also affects my skin in that I have to constantly apply lotion any time after I wash my hands, otherwise my skin dries out quickly. Below are the specifics of the water softener and raw well water.

Water Softener: 3M Water Softener 100 (Model# MWTS100; 32000 grain capacity, though I only get about 21K-22K grains removed at the salt dosage below)
Raw water hardness: ~60 gpg
TDS: ~875ppm (raw well water, un-softened); TDS of softened water is ~1060ppm

I have the softener set to regen every 9 days using 9.5 lbs of softener salt pellets (9.5 lbs is the manufacturer setting) with up flow brining (The 9 day calculation is based on our average water usage). I’ve played around with this setting adjusting it anywhere from 6.5lbs to 12 lbs, but cannot get rid of the white residue. I’ve attached a pic from our splash block to illustrate how pronounced this white residue is. It looks to me as if the residue is the softener salt itself. I have a separate spigot that dispenses the raw well water and notice the white residue is not nearly as pronounced.

Most of the research I've done so far suggests the white residue suggests that it may be due to high TDS; however I notice that it’s not nearly as pronounced with our neighbor’s water (abt 1/8th mile up the road from me). I tested the TDS of their softened water and it’s maybe 50ppm less than ours. The only difference with their system setup is they have a twin tank softener with what appears to be a whole house filter cartridge (not a whole house RO system).

I’d like to understand what may be the cause of this residue. Is it purely related to TDS in which case I'll have to live with it? Or could it be something related to the softener? With the differences noted with our neighbor’s setup above, would a twin tank system and a whole house filter cartridge make that much of a difference?

 

[Reach4]

If it washes away easily, it is salt. Perfectly normal. The softener does not remove TDS but changes them to soluble solids -- usually salt.

Excessive hand washing can dry your hands.

If you are really motivated, you could get a big whole house reverse osmosis (RO) water filter. However for very little money, you can buy a gallon of distilled water. Spray items that you just washed with that water. Use a spray bottle. Do this for eyeglasses, mirrors, and more.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ByteMe]

Buying and storing distilled water would be a pain in the butt. Install a RODI system under the sink with a larger 3/8" out put for washing your hands with.

In west Texas, after softener we had a TDS of just over 1050. My wife claimed the soft water was much better to wash her hands/hair/skin with.

 

[Bannerman]

As you stated setting to regenerate every 9 days, that implies that the control valve is timer initiated. A metered control is more efficient and would be better suited for your requirements as it will regenerate after an actual set amount of capacity has been utilized.

Assuming only 2 residents in your home, with 22K grains of usable capacity, would typically require regeneration every 3 days. You indicate setting the regeneration frequency every 9 days which would imply your household is using only 1/3 of the 60 Gal/person/day consumption common to the US general population. As you are programming for an estimated average consumption, there will be some days when your water use will be higher and the softener capacity is most likely being exceeded.

The 3M spec sheet for Model 100 indicates a default 6 lb setting for 21,500 grains of usable capacity. It indicates 1 cuft but only specifies an 8" diameter tank and only 29K as maximum capacity, requiring 16 lbs of salt to regenerate. http://www.3mwater.com/media/catalog/product/pdfs/3MWTS_Spec.pdf

Typical resin capacity for 1 cuft resin is 30K grains when regenerated with 15 lbs of salt.

You specify TDS numbers but those are not appropriate for setting a softener since it is a general reading which does not indicate the various elements which comprise that reading. You will need a full water analysis to identify the minerals and contaminants which maybe causing the white residue and deposits on your skin.

Salt is sodium chloride. A softener utilizes only sodium in the regeneration cycle whereas the chloride is flushed to drain along with calcium and magnesium ions removed earlier in the softening process.

While up flow bring can be more efficient, it is rarely done as it is difficult to set up properly. As I expect your valve can be altered, it is recommended to set for down flow brining.

 

[ditttohead]

That valve should not be changed in the field from up to down flow brining.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Have you spoken to 3M to have them go through the consumer and master programming to make sure things are programmed correctly for your water and family size? I doubt the valve is upflow but.... in the programming there is the option to select either Up or Dn flow. Also, the valve factory default salt dose is 9.5 lbs and the capacity is 24K, which will probably never be used in the three sizes in that pdf file. Also, high sulfates can cause your problem. Or it may be high silica content. Do you have a "salty" taste to the water? If not it won't be sodium or sodium chloride (salt).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's actually a very good question. If the dried white powder tastes like salt or not. I suspect not which suggests high sulfate sorry silica as Gary said. At any rate, see what the stuff tastes like and go from there.

 

[Bannerman]

Also, the valve factory default salt dose is 9.5 lbs and the capacity is 24K, which will probably never be used in the three sizes in that pdf file.

Gary, I'm not seeing where the PDF indicates that.

I interpret the Specifications on page 2 for the 3MWTS100 as 4lbs - 16,500 grains, 6lbs - 21,600 grains, 16lbs - 29K grains, assuming the specs in the linked PDF are applicable to the OP's actual softener. The centre numbers (blue) are the indicated factory settings while the 1st numbers (green) are the highest efficiency and the 3rd (red) are the highest capacity settings.

Perhaps when the salt setting on this unit is changed from default, the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse timing may need to be altered accordingly.

I doubt the valve is upflow but.... in the programming there is the option to select either Up or Dn flow.

That was also my thought but Dittohead's comment ("That valve...") maybe indicative that he knows something else.

As the linked PDF indicates the unit is meter controlled, it maybe when daniboi81 stated setting a 9 day regeneration cycle, he was actually referring to the Days Override setting.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Bannerman, 3M doesn't make the valve, tanks etc. and their reference to 'factory' means themselves, not the actual company making the various component parts. From what I can see, the valve is a Clack WS-1 xx version (5 button straight across). Factory setting is 9.5 lbs and 24K among other things. There is a special sequence etc. to push certain buttons, in the correct order and for a specific amount of time to get into the master programming or the consumer programming and most dealers etc. do not tell the consumer how to get into the master programming.... daniboi may know how to get into it since he mentions Up flow' or it isn't in the master programming as I think it is.

 

[daniboi81]

Thanks for the good information. I already have a RO system for drinking/cooking. For the 2 of us, we usually use 20-30 gallons per day total with probably closer to 100 gals on Sundays when we do laundry and cooking.

Originally I had the meter set to auto regen based on the total capacity used; however I found that there would always be some hard water seeping in before the next regen would occur, so I decided to set it to a regen override of 9 days based on our average usage. The this latest regen does give a hint of a salty taste to the water. I changed the regen from downflow bring to upflow brine based on the various articles I read about upflow gaining efficiency and reducing potential hardness leakage, though I suspect that I could be using too much salt for the upflow regen.

Gary - To answer your question, the white residue does have a salty taste to it, almost like licking baking soda.

The only other thing that's on my mind is the difference between my setup and our neighbors setup. Would a twin tank softener + sediment filter make that much of a difference in the residue? Also, does the type of salt used for regeneration make a difference? I use salt pellets; however our neighbors use solar salt crystals and some articles I've read suggest that solar salt crystals dissolve 100% where as salt pellets may leave residue.

 

[daniboi81]

Bannerman, 3M doesn't make the valve, tanks etc. and their reference to 'factory' means themselves, not the actual company making the various component parts. From what I can see, the valve is a Clack WS-1 xx version (5 button straight across). Factory setting is 9.5 lbs and 24K among other things. There is a special sequence etc. to push certain buttons, in the correct order and for a specific amount of time to get into the master programming or the consumer programming and most dealers etc. do not tell the consumer how to get into the master programming.... daniboi may know how to get into it since he mentions Up flow' or it isn't in the master programming as I think it is.

The 3M technician who installed the softener showed me the master programming section since I asked. I've only played around with a couple of the setting that made sense (e.g. brine direction, salt dosage) since there's no "user guide" for the master programming section .

 

[ditttohead]

Do not change the valve brining from down to up, it requires a lot more than that. Pistons, valve body, injector location, injector sizing, programming etc.

Upflow brining on paper is more efficient, in the real world it is primarily a marketing item that gives a perception of higher efficiency.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Thanks for the good information. I already have a RO system for drinking/cooking. For the 2 of us, we usually use 20-30 gallons per day total with probably closer to 100 gals on Sundays when we do laundry and cooking.

Originally I had the meter set to auto regen based on the total capacity used; however I found that there would always be some hard water seeping in before the next regen would occur, so I decided to set it to a regen override of 9 days based on our average usage. The this latest regen does give a hint of a salty taste to the water. I changed the regen from downflow bring to upflow brine based on the various articles I read about upflow gaining efficiency and reducing potential hardness leakage, though I suspect that I could be using too much salt for the upflow regen.

Gary - To answer your question, the white residue does have a salty taste to it, almost like licking baking soda.

The only other thing that's on my mind is the difference between my setup and our neighbors setup. Would a twin tank softener + sediment filter make that much of a difference in the residue? Also, does the type of salt used for regeneration make a difference? I use salt pellets; however our neighbors use solar salt crystals and some articles I've read suggest that solar salt crystals dissolve 100% where as salt pellets may leave residue.

Daniboi.... you have been guessing when changing settings; usually only bad things happen when that is done... You're guessing about your water use too. Use 60 gal/day/person (120) and if city water, use the highest hardness in the system. If your well, use current hardness etc. figures. See the red Click Here in my signature? Click on it and do the math to check your programming and set it correctly for a 1 cuft softener. You don't need a different type softener and the type of salt isn't causing the problem but... IMO solar crystal fully dissolves while pellets leave a residue in the salt tank and it is very rare that solar causes any salt related problems. Plus it is cheaper.

Upflow requires a different piston etc. than Dnflow and IIRC to be an Upflow valve/control, there is a gray plug on the right side of the valve as you look at the front. Reprogram as originally and learn how to program for high salt efficiency on my sizing page. Listing here the data in all the fields (consumer and master) would be helpful.

 

[daniboi81]

Daniboi.... you have been guessing when changing settings; usually only bad things happen when that is done... You're guessing about your water use too. Use 60 gal/day/person (120) and if city water, use the highest hardness in the system. If your well, use current hardness etc. figures. See the red Click Here in my signature? Click on it and do the math to check your programming and set it correctly for a 1 cuft softener. You don't need a different type softener and the type of salt isn't causing the problem but... IMO solar crystal fully dissolves while pellets leave a residue in the salt tank and it is very rare that solar causes any salt related problems. Plus it is cheaper.

Upflow requires a different piston etc. than Dnflow and IIRC to be an Upflow valve/control, there is a gray plug on the right side of the valve as you look at the front. Reprogram as originally and learn how to program for high salt efficiency on my sizing page. Listing here the data in all the fields (consumer and master) would be helpful.

This calculator and explanation helps greatly and was what I was looking for. Thank you. I'm not guessing at the 30 gallons per day and in fact that may be generous. During the work week, we only use some in the am for brushing teeth, washing face, shaving, etc.. We don't shower or shave every day, more like 1 shower ever 3 days since a daily shower is overkill in our line of work. Outside of that, other daily consumption is limited to the RO system and some washing of dishes here and there in the evening, an occasional dishwasher cycle which only uses 5 gallons of water. We do most of the cooking/laundry on Sundays which consumes the most water and that's maybe 100 gallons total. We've very conservative with water usage since it's not as abundant as it was when I lived in Michigan.

Using your calculator and explanation suggests to me that I may be using too much salt in the regeneration process by about 3 lbs based on the original factory setting of 9.5 lbs.

 

[ditttohead]

The grey plug on the side of the valve indicates 1-1/4" Clack, upflow would be indicated by the two tone piston inside the valve.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Your original complaint was getting some hard water through the unit before the next regen. That happens when you use more water than has been sized for and/or programmed for or.... you have exceeded the max constant SFR gpm of the softener. Increasing the salt dose and K of capacity is a cure but it has to be done based on more than a guess. And we may have to change rinse etc. times too but... none of that cures an over run of gpm flow for the softener's max constant SFR. The only cure for that is to reduce the gpm used or a larger correctly sized softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates the size/model of control valve to service that size tank and volume of resin with the proper freeboard space above the resin for proper backwashing of the resin bed.

Somewhere I think I asked you to list the programming data, both consumer and master programming; and if you had asked 3M about the cause of the problem. Can you list the programming data for us?

 

[Gary Slusser]

Yeah I should have gone and looked up the gray plug thingy before mentioning it. I see where the injector must be moved too, I wonder if that was done but, if it has been it needs to be changed to Dn and programmed to Dn.

 

[daniboi81]

Your original complaint was getting some hard water through the unit before the next regen. That happens when you use more water than has been sized for and/or programmed for or.... you have exceeded the max constant SFR gpm of the softener. Increasing the salt dose and K of capacity is a cure but it has to be done based on more than a guess. And we may have to change rinse etc. times too but... none of that cures an over run of gpm flow for the softener's max constant SFR. The only cure for that is to reduce the gpm used or a larger correctly sized softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates the size/model of control valve to service that size tank and volume of resin with the proper freeboard space above the resin for proper backwashing of the resin bed.

Somewhere I think I asked you to list the programming data, both consumer and master programming; and if you had asked 3M about the cause of the problem. Can you list the programming data for us?

I overlooked that part of your request, my apologies. To start, I did contact the 3M dealer who installed the softener; however they wont be able to assist me until early-mid October based on their availability. Regarding the programming settings for both consumer and master, I went through the screens on the 3M softener for consumer and master settings. See below. All others not included are just diagnostic numbers (e.g. # of regens, # of days since last regen, # gallongs treated since last regen, etc.)

Consumer
Hardness: 80 (I set this to 80 because setting to the true GPG of 60 would give me a few days worth of hard water before the softener would regen. I can only get about 350 gallons of treated water before it turns hard again)
Regen Day: 9
Regen Time: 2:00am
Current flow rate: 1.1 gal/min
Max flow rate: 4.2 gal/min

Master
Capacity: 32.0 x 1000
Regen: 9.5 lbs
Regen: Normal | Backwash
Regen: Post Fill
Regen: dn BRINE

 

[Gary Slusser]

You need to go to Auto so it regens based on gallons, and then day Override like 7-9 (whatever your K of capacity gives you in days based on your programmed gallons).

Use 30,000 (30.0 x 1000) because that is the max you will get in 1 cuft of regular mesh resin. And you may want to do 2 manual regens, one after the other with no water use during or between them at 15 lbs of salt. That will regenerate all the resin back to max capacity (30K). When done change the salt dose to whatever it is supposed to be for your salt efficiency.

 

[daniboi81]

You need to go to Auto so it regens based on gallons, and then day Override like 7-9 (whatever your K of capacity gives you in days based on your programmed gallons).

Use 30,000 (30.0 x 1000) because that is the max you will get in 1 cuft of regular mesh resin. And you may want to do 2 manual regens, one after the other with no water use during or between them at 15 lbs of salt. That will regenerate all the resin back to max capacity (30K). When done change the salt dose to whatever it is supposed to be for your salt efficiency.

After I run the manual regens @ 15lbs salt and 30k capacity, would I then set the K capacity to what is calculated based on your calculator (I had inputted 60gpg, 2 persons, 20 gals per person per day...calculator gave me 19.2K capacity, rounded up to 20k, 6 lbs salt, and 8 days between regens)?