Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

[Bob999]

Where would you put the sediment filter?

If you are going to install a sand/sediment filter it should be the first item. If you get sufficient sand and sediment that it would cause problems if it got into the AN filter than it should be installed as you have it. The real question is whether a separate sand/sediment filter is necessary. The AN filter will filter out sediment but if you get signifcant amounts of sand it may cause problems.

If you do put the sand/sediment filter in front of the AN filter then it is VERY IMPORTANT that you keep it clean so that it does not end up restricting flow and reducing the backwash effectiveness of the AN filter. (The AN filter is the primary concern because the backwash rate is much higher than the softener.)

 

[thinkup]

I'm on what is called muni water. It's not a well and I get my water from the village. The trouble is it seems like the village is just shipping me their well water. Granted it passes basic EPA stuff but it's hard water and rates a 6.4 to 6.7 for Ph. I'm not sure how much I need the sand separator though. It has a clear housing so I can monitor it but I don't want it messing up the AN filter.

Can someone explain to me the basic process of how the backwash cycle works on the AN? I guess I need some AN filter 101 training.

P.S. I'm still going to post some photos of the drain setup tonight for review. Thanks everyone.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bob999]

Can someone explain to me the basic process of how the backwash cycle works on the AN? I guess I need some AN filter 101 training.

In the operating mode the water flows down through the media and is collected at the bottom of the tank and then flows up the distributor tube and out to the house. When the filter backwashes the water flow is reversed and the water flows down through the distributer tube to the bottom of the tank and then up through the media. The flow is controlled by the drain line flow button and the size of the button is chosen so that (ideally) the backwash flow will lift the media bed and remove dirt, silt, and very small media particles and flush them to the drain. Following the backwash the valve reverses the flow back to the service flow direction and does a "settling" rinse that is also flushed to drain to settle the bed and remove additional small particles. The valve then returns to the service position so that the water flows to the house plumbing

 

[thinkup]

That sounds simple enough. So if I got that right, if your flow control button isn't sized correctly or your backwash pressure isn't high enough, then your media isn't lifted enough to clean it? As the water flows through this media over time, will I see this media being eatin away by the acid in the water? To much acid and not enough backwash = the "killing" of the media I'm taking it? I should expect to have to add media again over time but I want the longest life span from it.

I didn't notice the bottom of the distributar tube, but does that have a filter on it to prevent all the media from going into the water supply. The tube is sitting in the bottom with gravel around it but the media looks fine and dusty.

Speaking of media; the softener media is like soft wet brown sugar or something. Does that work about the same way? The water flows down through this mixture and then up through the tube to the house? What stops all that resin from going up into the water supply?

Back to the AN filter, are there settings or things to do to make sure it's backwashing correctly / enough / often enough / or with enough water pressure, etc.?

 

[Bob999]

That sounds simple enough. So if I got that right, if your flow control button isn't sized correctly or your backwash pressure isn't high enough, then your media isn't lifted enough to clean it? Correct.
As the water flows through this media over time, will I see this media being eatin away by the acid in the water? The media will gradually be consumed by the acid and you will need to add media periodically.
To much acid and not enough backwash = the "killing" of the media I'm taking it? If the media is not adequately backwashed it may need to be replaced prematurely. I should expect to have to add media again over time but I want the longest life span from it.

I didn't notice the bottom of the distributar tube, but does that have a filter on it to prevent all the media from going into the water supply. There is a bulb with slits that prevents normal sized resin (in the softener) or AN media from escaping. The tube is sitting in the bottom with gravel around it but the media looks fine and dusty. The media, when initially added, will have to be backwashed until the backwash water runs clear.

Speaking of media; the softener media is like soft wet brown sugar or something. Does that work about the same way? Yes. The water flows down through this mixture and then up through the tube to the house? Yes. What stops all that resin from going up into the water supply? A bulb with slits similar to the AN filter.

Back to the AN filter, are there settings or things to do to make sure it's backwashing correctly / enough / often enough / or with enough water pressure, etc.? Water pressure is determined by your water supply and your maintenance of any filter in front of it. The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing. The Fleck 5600 does not have adjustable backwash but with the standard piston the backwash time of 30 minutes combined for the first and second backwash should be adequate.

See my comments in red above.

 

[thinkup]

Drain Parts

WOW! Awesome, thanks so much for the feedback Bob999. It's much appreciated. I'm going to have to think about that pre-filter now. At this point I'm thinking of leaving it where it is and watching it like hawk for the first month or so. I have a feeling I will be playing around with other plumbing projects in the basement as well, so not a big deal.

Attached are photos of some of my drain parts. The 3/4 PVC and air-gapped end are already posted. To add to my list of things to think about are how to hook up all these things.

 

[thinkup]

Drain Parts with Labels

I did this up quick in paint. From my understanding, check valves are not needed when things are working correctly but in times when things go bad they would prevent the water backing up. So in that case I really don't need them. But will they actually hurt? As in will the pressure drop? It's not like the Dee Pot actually has 1/2 check valves here anyway but I could find them if needed.

And is my diagram correct in how I should hook this up? The backwash from the AN will go only to the 3/4 PVC and not to the softener and if it does it will just fill up it's hose and not go into the unit? Thanks so much everyone.

 

[Bob999]

I did this up quick in paint. From my understanding, check valves are not needed when things are working correctly but in times when things go bad they would prevent the water backing up. So in that case I really don't need them. But will they actually hurt? Check valves add resistance to flow and like any mechanical thing can fail so you need to balance these factors against the potential benefits. As in will the pressure drop? It's not like the Dee Pot actually has 1/2 check valves here anyway but I could find them if needed.

And is my diagram correct in how I should hook this up? yesThe backwash from the AN will go only to the 3/4 PVC and not to the softener and if it does it will just fill up it's hose and not go into the unit? Correct-if everything is working correctly. Thanks so much everyone.

See comments above.

One observation--If I were doing it I woud do the transition from 1/2" flexible hose to 3/4 PVC close to each filter and before the T so that the T in the drain line was 3/4 PVC. This will provide better flow (less backpressure) in your drain line.

 

[Skip Wolverton]

The drain set up looks good. They do make a funnel shape devise that will glue onto the 1 1/2 pipe that will prevent the drain from spilling. You might try finding it at a plumbing shop.

 

[thinkup]

The drain set up looks good. They do make a funnel shape devise that will glue onto the 1 1/2 pipe that will prevent the drain from spilling. You might try finding it at a plumbing shop.

I was wondering about that. I was thinking of looking for something like that. I figured I had to do something to perfect that air gap a little and that might be it. Thanks.

 

[thinkup]

See comments above.

One observation--If I were doing it I woud do the transition from 1/2" flexible hose to 3/4 PVC close to each filter and before the T so that the T in the drain line was 3/4 PVC. This will provide better flow (less backpressure) in your drain line.

So would you recomend then to come down the wall with the 3/4 PVC and then add a 3/4 PVC T and then to add a second 3/4 PVC to 1/2 coupler? That would just mean running a short little run of 1/2 tube from the AN and the softener and having all the rest 3/4 PVC. I just figured it would be eaiser to push up the tube of water at 1/2 inch then have the filters push up the water through 3/4 PVC. Whatever works better though is what I want to do obviously. Thanks for the suggestion and all the help.

 

[Bob999]

So would you recomend then to come down the wall with the 3/4 PVC and then add a 3/4 PVC T and then to add a second 3/4 PVC to 1/2 coupler? That would just mean running a short little run of 1/2 tube from the AN and the softener and having all the rest 3/4 PVC. I just figured it would be eaiser to push up the tube of water at 1/2 inch then have the filters push up the water through 3/4 PVC. Whatever works better though is what I want to do obviously. Thanks for the suggestion and all the help.

Yes that is what I would do.

 

[Gary Slusser]

See my comments in red above.

This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

 

[thinkup]

This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.

I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.

I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Bob999]

Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.

I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.

I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.

As you correctly perceive the real question is whether the 5600 will do the job. In my opinion the answer is yes. I say that because the 3/4" valve provides adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop to backwash the size tank you have and the standard piston provides 30 minutes of backwash. Once the valve is in service position the only difference is (again) whether the valve allows adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop--a larger valve would have higher flow at a given pressure drop but for the size of media tank you have you might not get adequate contact time for neutralization with higher flows.

Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.

In any event you will be able to see for yourself whether the valve provides acceptable service one you get the system installed and operating.

 

[Akpsdvan]

This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

Say What???????????????????????

Yes the standard 5600 has a pre-set time frame. There is no way of changing the Backwash time or any of the other parts of the cleaning cycle.

If all that is needed is to backwash with nothing really in the water then a neutralizer set to backwash every 2 or 3 days will keep the media from channeling or hardening up.

The SE or now SXT is even better because IT CAN get set up to have a 6 minute backwash or even out to 20 minute backwash, it can even have the rest of the cycle times added to or subtracted from.. making it just as good as the 3200 timer that is on the rest of the Fleck valve controls.

Finally the 3/4" valve will backwash the needed gallons for that size of tank.

The standard 5600 does have limits, and back washing the neutralizer media every 2-3 days works, Iron Filter for oxide iron... NO... the 2510 or 2750 or the 5600 SXT would be the first choice for that.

 

[Gary Slusser]

WOW! Awesome, thanks so much for the feedback Bob999. It's much appreciated. I'm going to have to think about that pre-filter now. At this point I'm thinking of leaving it where it is and watching it like hawk for the first month or so. I have a feeling I will be playing around with other plumbing projects in the basement as well, so not a big deal.

Attached are photos of some of my drain parts. The 3/4 PVC and air-gapped end are already posted. To add to my list of things to think about are how to hook up all these things.

Thinkup... I think you will agree with me that you know nothing about this stuff, right? I'm going on a quarter century of doing it, trust me, get rid of the prefilter. You have city water and no need for the prefilter unless your water is visibly dirty/discolored.

Your 3/4" 5600 is going to reduce your pressure during backwash and you can not increase the length of time the backwash etc. can run for (as Bob mistakenly said you can), so you should not add anything before the AN filter that will reduce the pressure farther, like this prefilter you have no need for.

What you think is sand etc, probably is hardness scale or dirt coming out of the plumbing but either way your AN mineral will filter it out down to about 20 microns. You can't see particles less than 50-45 microns without a microscope.

And IF you have good pressure, the filter will backwash that stuff out of the mineral, and if not, you'll be replacing the mineral (which should never be needed) instead of just adding to it periodically. And when you add mineral, you need to backwash the filter very good (maybe 20 minutes) before adding new mineral. To do that, you put it in backwash and unplug the control valve and time it. Then you shut off your water and add mineral and turn on the water and backwash the new mineral until the water going to drain is as clear as you can get it. So use a short piece (like a foot) of opaque 5/8" OD PE drain line so you can see the water leaving the filter. Otherwise you walk to the end of your drain line at the air gap.

If you do not give up the idea of that prefilter, you will regret that decision in a few months. And by the time you know there is a problem, it's too late for the mineral.

As to the drain line... you bought Vinyl tubing, do not use it. It kinks closed very easily.

The 5600 needs a 1/2" MPT x insert (barbed) fitting and you should go the foot of opaque PE drain line I mentioned above to 3/4" PVC. Then 3/4" PVC from the Clack 3/4" MPT drain line elbow fitting to the side of a 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" PVC Tee in the filter drain line. No check valves. So you don't need the insert x insert x insert Tee you bought.

I previously said to install this equipment on the left of your main water line as in the first picture you posted at the beginning of the thread.... you already have it on the left side so my error, that should be on the RIGHT side of the water main line. Water main coming up from the floor and the AN filter to its right and the softener to the right of the AN filter. Then back to the water main line.

 

[thinkup]

Thinkup... I think you will agree with me that you know nothing about this stuff, right? I'm going on a quarter century of doing it, trust me, get rid of the prefilter. You have city water and no need for the prefilter unless your water is visibly dirty/discolored.

Your 3/4" 5600 is going to reduce your pressure during backwash and you can not increase the length of time the backwash etc. can run for (as Bob mistakenly said you can), so you should not add anything before the AN filter that will reduce the pressure farther, like this prefilter you have no need for.

What you think is sand etc, probably is hardness scale or dirt coming out of the plumbing but either way your AN mineral will filter it out down to about 20 microns. You can't see particles less than 50-45 microns without a microscope.

And IF you have good pressure, the filter will backwash that stuff out of the mineral, and if not, you'll be replacing the mineral (which should never be needed) instead of just adding to it periodically. And when you add mineral, you need to backwash the filter very good (maybe 20 minutes) before adding new mineral. To do that, you put it in backwash and unplug the control valve and time it. Then you shut off your water and add mineral and turn on the water and backwash the new mineral until the water going to drain is as clear as you can get it. So use a short piece (like a foot) of opaque 5/8" OD PE drain line so you can see the water leaving the filter. Otherwise you walk to the end of your drain line at the air gap.

If you do not give up the idea of that prefilter, you will regret that decision in a few months. And by the time you know there is a problem, it's too late for the mineral.

As to the drain line... you bought Vinyl tubing, do not use it. It kinks closed very easily.

The 5600 needs a 1/2" MPT x insert (barbed) fitting and you should go the foot of opaque PE drain line I mentioned above to 3/4" PVC. Then 3/4" PVC from the Clack 3/4" MPT drain line elbow fitting to the side of a 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" PVC Tee in the filter drain line. No check valves. So you don't need the insert x insert x insert Tee you bought.

I previously said to install this equipment on the left of your main water line as in the first picture you posted at the beginning of the thread.... you already have it on the left side so my error, that should be on the RIGHT side of the water main line. Water main coming up from the floor and the AN filter to its right and the softener to the right of the AN filter. Then back to the water main line.

Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol
Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point. I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.

O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.

My comments were based on your using a prefilter or not. Not that your 5600 won't do the job for your size AN filter. I was giving you reasons for not using the prefilter.

I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.

Yes it should as long as you don't do something to prevent it from doing that, like installing a prefilter. The filter can last 20 years but the mineral will have t obe added to maybe annually because that depends on how much water you use, how frequently you backwash it and IF backwash is sufficient. There is a good possibility that with the prefilter it won't and you will have to replace the mineral. If needed, you will not like doing that.

I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.

That's what everyone posting or reading forums wants. The problem here is that you have people disagreeing with me that are wrong because they have no experience in water treatment and think they know something when they don't.

Example, Bob999 said you can adjust the length of the backwash and settling rinse but you can't; your 5600 version has no means of doing that. You can look up the manual and check it out. Now he's going on about a 30 minute piston and changing a piston!! The piston has nothing to do with time, it is a valve and changes water flow direction inside the filter and nothing more. But he sounds as if he knows what he is talking about right?

 

[Gary Slusser]

As you correctly perceive the real question is whether the 5600 will do the job. In my opinion the answer is yes.

No one is saying or has said that the 5600 won't do the job. The question is IF the mineral will be sufficiently backwashed (cleaned) by the control valve being used; a 5600 here that has no means of lengthening the time the backwash cycle position runs for in minutes.

I say that because the 3/4" valve provides adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop to backwash the size tank you have and the standard piston provides 30 minutes of backwash. Once the valve is in service position the only difference is (again) whether the valve allows adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop--a larger valve would have higher flow at a given pressure drop but for the size of media tank you have you might not get adequate contact time for neutralization with higher flows.

You are saying tank, it is the mineral in the tank Bob. AN mineral is very heavy (it is crushed LIMESTONE) and hard to lift regardless the size of the tank. And if the backwash cycle position doesn't run long enough, there will be inadequate "lift" during backwash to clean the mineral. And the length of time in backwash is critical. Not lifting the mineral for a long enough period of time will cause the mineral to inadequately do its job but more importantly, the pressure loss across the filter will increase. By the time Thinkup realizes the problem exists, the mineral will have to be replaced because it is too 'dirty' to be able to backwashed clean.

Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.

This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?

The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.