Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by thinkup, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

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    When did Dr. Phill join this forum? I thought this was about water treatment.
  2. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Oooh Oooh, can I be Oprah? :)
  3. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    In my part of the country the Pennsylvania Dutch are generally generally known as "salt of the earth" kind of folks--hard working, honest, etc. They are also generally known as "hard headed"--stubborn and unyielding. Of course these are generalizations and every individual is different.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey guys,
    Can you please delete and or modify your posts that don't add to this discussion?

    When I go through these things, I tend to be heavy on the delete key.

    I'm in a lot of pain today, and it's way too hard for me to focus.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Delete didn't work or I couldn't figure out how to do the Delete Post thing so I edited instead.

    I hope you get to feeling better.
  6. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

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    Location:
    NY
    Dutcher is back

    Should I even mention that my last name is Dutcher? Just saying, lol. Looks I missed some fun while I was out. I had a hell of a time at work with OT and some down HP blade servers, so I'm behind. Anyone need any help with blade servers, SANs, or iSCSI give me a shout. Fun times. But I'm back and I'm still working on this DIY project. I bought some copper and some PVC and stuff this weekend and am begging the test fit stages. Hope to has this all done by the end of next weekend.

    Attached I have a photo of a test setup I've done for the drain line. I want to know if this will work or makes sense to do it this way. It's 3/4 PVC coming in from the filter setup. The setup would be about 30 feet back from it and I need to go up and over a joist. I put together 2 45 degree elbows. Will this cause a problem in the drain line or will this work?

    I'll be back soon with more test fits. Like, will 3/4 PEX give me the same water pressure as 3/4 copper or CPVC?

    Attached Files:

  7. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    It will work.

    I have run 1/2 poly up and over items, under items all in getting to the spot for the drain..
  8. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    3,189
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    S. Maine
    3/4 Pex will be fine.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    PVC is IPS (iron pipe size ) and the ID is maintained, CPVC, copper and PEX is CTS (the OD is maintained). That means that IPS has a larger ID and will deliver more water.

    You can't fully dry fit PVC because without cement, the pipe will not go all the way into the fitting. WHen you glue things up, everything will shrink in length and height. Measure, cut, fit and glue as you install.
  10. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

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    36
    Location:
    NY
    Almost done!!

    Ok I have a bit left to do, like run electric for the outlet and finish the drain; but it's almost done. I've also gone very simple on the piping for my own sanity. I know I'll have more work down the road when I service this because I didn't run a bypass around it, but I just want everything up and running first. I'll shut the water off again in the future to perfect everything. Let me know what you think of all of this. Thanks.

    O and the drain line is bugging me. I was going to go 1/2 tubing from both filters to a T and then to the 3/4 PVC ... but what's stopping the water from going from one tank and then right to the other tank and not up the wall to the 3/4 drain line? What stops the water from coming back down too? Thanks.

    Attached Files:

  11. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Sweet.... Looks good and clean...

    On the drain.. use a check valve.. there are 1/2" check valves that you could use just after each of the units and then when on of them goes into a cleaning cycle the waste water will not go passed the check valve to the other unit.
    you can use a swing check valve as little to no presure is needed to open it, but will block the water from going backwards through the swing or gate..
  12. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

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    Location:
    NY
    Drain

    Awesome, I'll have to look into those check valves. Check out what I came up with for an air gap at the end. Does this look like it will work well?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2010
  13. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    My only challenge with air gaps like this , if that is spot on.. there will be water where it should not be, if it gets knoked out of alinment then there will be water where it should not be...

    One idea that I seen a plumber use was to take the bottom one, say 2 or 3" and cut in half from the end down about 6 inches and then cut out ... so that there is only half of the diamitor is in play and use that half to anchor the feed from the drain..

    I will see if I can come up with a photo of it...
  14. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    The Clack valve I looked at shows the inlet on the right. You have it on the left. Are you sure yours is right?
  15. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

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    36
    Location:
    NY
    I have it go from pre-filter to the port on the right of the Ph filter (Input) then out on the left of the Ph filter to the input on the right of the softener. The copper stub out on the left of the water softener is just hanging out now till I connect it to the house. This is all looking at the thing from head on. Does that sound right? Arrows pointing toward the tank are inputs and the arrows pointing out from the tank are out to the house correct? I'll double check when I get home so thanks for taking a look at it for me. That's what I'm looking for her, just some good advice and some double checking. Thanks.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Thinkup, in your first post starting the thread you said you were doing this as a guide for the future to help others.

    With that in mind, some constructive criticism.

    You should not have a prefilter in front of your backwashed AN filter. You do not want to restruct/reduce water flow to the AN filter in any way. If you do, you will cause incomplete backwash and that will kill the mineral.

    You should not install a by pass around this equipment. You have by pass valves on both pieces and that is all that is needed. To remove the filter or softener if ever needed, you disconnect the control valve from the by pass vale after putting the unit in by pass.

    You should not plumb the AN filter back in that corner. The way it is now will make adding mineral difficult to impossible and looking at the top dome hole plug location, you'll have to remove the filter from the by pass valve, and loosen the control valve to get the plug out and new mineral into the tank. I would have put the AN filter next to the main water line as you had it in your first picture in this thread; main, and to its RIGHT the filter and then the softener.

    I would shorten all the lengths of plumbing. There is no need to go so hig above 'things' or out from the wall as much as you have it.

    I would have installed both pieces back closer to the wall. And I would have used the Clack elbow plumbing connectors instead of the brass and then copper pigtails you had to buy, cut and solder straight out the back pf the bu pass valve. Instead of PEX, I would have used 3/4" CPVC or copper.

    You do not want check valves in the drain line. T the softener drain line into the the run of 3/4" PVC from the AN filter. Both control valves have internal valves for the drain line flow, so the drain water from one can't get into the other control valve. Plus you set the time of day on the filter ahead by 45 minutes so it backwashes before the softener regenerates so neither unit is using water while the other is using water anyway.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  17. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    "You should not have a prefilter in front of your backwashed AN filter. You do not want to restruct/reduce water flow to the AN filter in any way. If you do, you will cause incomplete backwash and that will kill the mineral."

    This is a problem for me and out of your response is the one I want to address the most. Should I put the prefilter after then? It's a pretty simple sand seperator but I want to protect the equipment as much as possible. And if I got what your saying right, having it first will put lower pressure water into the AN filter and when it needs to backwash it will "kill" the mineral? I just wanted clarity on that.

    "You should not plumb the AN filter back in that corner. The way it is now will make adding mineral difficult to impossible and looking at the top dome hole plug location, you'll have to remove the filter from the by pass valve, and loosen the control valve to get the plug out and new mineral into the tank. I would have put the AN filter next to the main water line as you had it in your first picture in this thread; main, and to its left the filter and then the softener."

    O man, I konw! I played around with the setup forever. I had that huge pre-filter to think about. But now I will be moving it so thats ok. But I also wanted to keep the PEX as short as possible. Which leads me too..

    "I would shorten all the lengths of plumbing. There is no need to go so hig above 'things' or out from the wall as much as you have it."

    My only concern was not going to short and getting stuck. I had to a lot of trial and error with things because I'm new to all this. The copper was the worst. I didn't know I could get something for the softener that wasn't a sweat connection. O well. It's on there now. I'll live with the ackward placement as much as possible now. My big concern is water pressure. Will shortening the pipes a little give me more water pressure?

    "You do not want check valves in the drain line. T the softener drain line into the the run of 3/4" PVC from the AN filter. Both control valves have internal valves for the drain line flow, so the drain water from one can't get into the other control valve. Plus you set the time of day on the filter ahead by 45 minutes so it backwashes before the softener regenerates so neither unit is using water while the other is using water anyway. "

    I'm a little confused here. Not needing the check valve is the easy part. Right now I have at home a 10 foot length of 1/2 tubing, a 1/2 to 3/4 in coupling with a barb on the end to connect the tubing to the 3/4 PVC drain line and a 1/2 T. So I should go 1/2 tube out of AN to the T and then from the other side of the T go up to my barbed couplign and then to the 3/4 drain line? That would leave the leg of the T for the water softener? I was wondering what happend when the AN backwashes .... how does the water just go up the 1/2 tube to the 3/4 PVC and not through the T to the water softener? I get that there is a control there to prevent the water from going inside and I will put that 45 min window in (great point thanks) but just curious and wanted to do it right.

    I do want this to be a for others with some photo examples and various techniques used so I'll go back through and make changes as needed. Thanks for all the help. I'll post more photos for clarity tonight.
  18. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,483
    Location:
    Alaska
    I have used a pre-filter before other Equipment because there is a need and one works with it.
    Some times How the Valve is screwed onto the tank will place the dome hole in a different spot, you may try that, other wise it is where is it and one works with things the way they are.

    Shorter runs might work better, but with the sharkbites that you have if pressure after while is not right, you can shorten some of the runs and see if that works better.

    If one unit goes into a cleaning cycle while the other is in service the unit that is in service will block the waste from the other one from getting in, but if there is a problem with the unit in service it may not block that water.

    when a unit is in service there is no water going to the drain if the valve is in the correct spot and the seals are good, but if piston is not or seals are not good,, the water to drain.
  19. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    I stand corrected. I thought the sediment filter was last and that is what confused me.
  20. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    No thank you for looking at the setup. How does everything else look to you? Where would you put the sediment filter?
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