Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by thinkup, Feb 27, 2010.

  1. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    I need some help installing a new water softener, RO system and acid neutralizer. I'll post pics as the process is completed and hopefully this thread can serve as a nice guide for the future. I have all the main equipment now and need to move on to the main plumbing part. I'll have to come back around for the programing help at the end but first I need everything hooked up. For Ph I have a Fleck 5600 with 1 cuft. I have the WS1 at 32k with SST-60 resin for the softener. A PuroTech RO system and an inline sand seperator. The RO system also has a pump if I need to install it. This is a small ranch house with one bathroom and a simple shower with a regular shower head. There is only two of us living here. I have 3/4 copper coming in and want to use CPVC and PEX as much as possible. I'm a DIYer but have no plumbing experience. The water comes in at one side of the house from the city and drain goes out to a septic system at the opposite side of the house. Also on the drain side of the house is a tankless hot water heater. The kitchen sink is on the main supply side of the house and the bathroom is on the septic side of the house. (60 to 70 feet apart) I'll post the main questions I have to start below and I'll provide the details need as they come up.

    My understanding is that the sediment filter is installed first in line, then the neutralizer and then the softener. Is that correct?

    I have to run the drain line about 70 feet to the septic drain. I've read that 3/4 PVC is the smart choice. Is that correct? Can the neutralizer and the water softener share the same 3/4 inch PVC drain? Also, how much should this drain line slope?

    Should the RO system be fed softened water?

    What size plumping pipes should I buy? Everything branches off a main copper pipe that is 3/4 inches now. I don't want the hose bibs softened so I'm even thinking of adding in manifolds if they make sense.

    Which is a better choice CPVC vs PEX after the main copper to connect to the water filters?

    I'm thinking shark bite fittings for copper to whatever but whats a good PEX connection system? I've read up on it and have a hydronic heating system thats using a crimp system that seems ok but has had some leaking problems. I didn't install that system by the way.

    What information can I provide to help out here? Thanks!
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Pex either red or blue and sharkbites are your friend.
    The sharkbite 3/4 coupling from copper to pex and then maybe some bend supports or elbows depending on room.
    Sediment filter then Neutralizer then softener then RO would be the line up.. each system's bypass will have markings showing flow.
    The RO would be after 2 larger systems. a 3/4x1/2x3/4 TEE and then a 1/2 by -- for the RO feed line.
    Because you have the RO going in , I would run the softener on a little higher salt setting for say 1000 gallons.
    So if you where going to have the softener set at say 6 lbs and 1000 gallons, with the ro I would have 9lbs and 800gallons.. the ro will work better.

    One way of doing the drain is 1/2 poly whit tubing,, if you tie the two together there should be a check valve for each of them in the drain lines.. or just run 2 lines one for each system. Do not go over 8' above the discharge point for either system.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2010
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Me on the other hand... I don't know how 2 more lbs of salt are going to help an RO. It will have to work harder to remove the additional sodium.

    And I say the drain line can't go up more than 6-7 feet from the fitting on the control valve, and it can't go sideways over 30' much unless it is going to come back down from over head. And to go this 70', you need 3/4" from the fitting on the control valve.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    I know that when I was running the bottle plant for a company , when the softener was on max salt while running just under the max meter setting both the RO and Distiller worked better and needed less cleaning.
  5. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    Follow up with photos

    Here is a quick follow up with photos. Thanks guys for the quick responses. Gary, reading your website and posts is the reason I decided to go the DIY route by the way. Attached are photos of my setup in the basement. I know I'll have to get back to the setup details like salt settings, etc, but first I've got to get the plumbing done. I'm a little worried about the drain line. I just need a break down of the steps to take. Like step one, shut of the main and drain everything. Two, cut the copper and pop in a sharkbite T then attach 3/4 in PEX and then connect to sand seperator. Then go to the ph filter the to the softener, etc. Most of it I got, but putting in the RO of the PEX is a little confusing. And the drain line going so far is a little weird to me, etc. I'll attach the photos and then I'll go over each area that is causing me to question things. Also, does it look like I bought some good equipment? Not getting into if it's all the right size, which it should be because I used a lot of good sites to figure this stuff out, but just considering the brands guess.
  6. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    Equipment Corner

    These are photos of the corner and the equipment. It shows the layout of the space and how high the drain line needs to run up to the ceiling.

    Attached Files:

  7. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    First Decision

    My first decision is what do I do with this thing at the top of the main supply? What is that? And the you see the first outside hose bib. Should I just tie in right after that so this hose bib is not on soft water?

    Attached Files:

  8. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    Drain Issues

    Then I have to worry about the drain. Should I go with one long PVC run at 3/4 inch? How does one drain connect to two filters? I want the drain to be close to the ceiling because in the future I want to finish my basement. There is a photo looking out from the equipment corner to the septic side of the house and a picture of a beam the drain line has to rise up even further over before it gets to the end. Once the drain reaches the end I have a PVC connection a washer will eventually hook up too. What do you think?

    Attached Files:

  9. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I have no clue what that thing is but it is a steel fitting and will rust pretty bad so get rid of it. Yes, pipe your supply and bypass after the sillcock.
  10. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    I was thinking of doing that but I do want to get rid of that rusty thing that looks like some sort of pressure relief thing. If I get rid of that and still pipe in after the sillcock then I'll have to add exter bits in first. I was thinking (if you look at the pic of the main supply line with the two tanks) of cutting in where the first connection is near the top of the ph tank. That's why the manifold idea hit me first. I was thinking tie in a manifold and use it to then go to the first sillcock and one line to the filters, etc. Thoughts?
  11. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I can't see whats screwed into the steel fitting but the fitting has to go. swap it to a brass one if you must but get rid of the steel. I guess you could do a manifold thing but is seems like a lot of extra work.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Then I would have checked the softener for unacceptable hardness leakage and set it up correctly.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I'm glad to see you joining the ranks of the DIYers but I have concerns. I go over constant SFR and K of capacity sizing, programming and installation etc. with my customer usually before they buy. There are few people that buy from me that I don't go over all that with them first.

    And I see that you bought the EE version of the Clack WS-1 and a 5600 time clock for a heavy mineral pH filter. I would have told you not to do that. The 5600 is not a good choice because it is a 3/4" valve. You should have gone with the Clack WS-1CS for both with the one for the filter being non metered or the time clock version.

    Run your drain line in 3/4" PVC with as few elbows as possible. Run the filter line straight back toward the wall and tee the softener into that line or where the line goes up the wall. No check valves. The fitting on the 5600 is 1/2" FPT and 3/4" MPT on the Clack.
  14. thinkup

    thinkup New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    NY
    Well Gary it's a little sad to hear I didn't buy the perfect gear. It's been a while since this stuff was ordered, I had other projects to finish up. Can you remind me the difference between the EE and the regular WS-1? Also, not looking at product durability or ease of repair, are we mainly talking about flow rates here? There is just two of us living here. We have only one bath and nothing fancy anywhere. There is no horse or other animals that drink a ton of water and if I remember right the 32k might have even been on the overkill side of things. Like I said, its been a while but I did look at the SFR back when this project was fresh. Did the running water into the bucket timed test and estimated some things. I think I remember even using something on your side that took some numbers and spit out some recommendations. Hindsight is a great thing, who knows I might have been better off just giving you a call. I didn't compare prices from you sight but I did get a good deal from a friend on the gear I have. I almost went with a Kinetico before I got my head out of the sand. 6k for everything from them lol! Anyway, I really appreciate your help on this. To everyone as well, thanks for the help. I'm going to do up a little diagram on how I'm going to plumb this and if it looks good I'll do it up and we can move onto configuring the controls.
  15. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    You did good in getting the equipment, now it is to work with what you have with out adding more ..
    The clack valve that you have will work very well for what you are doing. The EE is the new and improved valve,, ie more money to spend..

    You can run two lines for the drian, one for each or start off each unit put a check valve in the drain and then bring the two together with the higher flow rate discharge on the straight through of the TEE and the lower in at the 90 part of the TEE.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Akpsdvan, those Clack valves up there in Alaska that you mention. I can tell you that they aren't my customers and to prove that, you can easily ask your service customer who they bought from.

    So now you claim my knowledge is in question because of me living in a mobile home... actually it is a motor home as you know Bob and I and probably a lot of other people think it demeans your position.

    And IMO, salesmen know more about this stuff thasn a person that simply owns a softener etc..

    Installing a filter and/or water softener is straight simple plumbing. You cut a 4" or larger piece of the main water line out and the feed side end goes to the inlet of the filter, from the outlet to the inlet of the softener and then from the softener's outlet back to to the end of the pipe going to the house.


    That's due to you having no experience in servicing that type and size filter with a 5600 Bob, I do have that experience. The 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters like this 1.5 cuft AN filter, which I already told you that and I told you why it's a bad choice.

    Well Bob you're repeating yourself and getting emotional while everyone sees your personal attacks on me, including your lying mention of where or how I live etc. etc.. So now you're claiming I didn't read the post! And yet you are going on'n on about what I said about it and how I said it.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  17. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    So Gary, I have said that you are a salesman and that you sell from a mobile home with no fixed address. What in that statement are you saying is untrue?

    You are a salesman.

    As a salesman you sell--if there are buyers.

    You live in a mobile home, or motor home, according to the information you post in your avatar.

    The mobile home has no fixed address--again based on the information you post in your avatar.

    So what do you believe in my statement is a lie?

    I think you owe me an apology for your defamatory statement.
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The untrue part, the lie, is that I live in a mobile home.

    And now you have compounded your misinformation Bob.

    I do have a fixed address, and an avatar is a picture Bob, it has no information in it. I have filled out my Profile here but nowhere in my profile do I say I don't have a fixed address or that I do. I say I live wherever I park the motorhome.

    Another thing in my profile is my real name Bob, and the address of my web site where my fixed address and phone number is listed along with a link to 'Where we are' that pinpoints my exact location on a map of north America with the GPS coordinates that are accurate to within 5-10' of actual.

    All that while you are anonymous and refuse to say anything about yourself, and especially anything about your experience in water treatment, while you read spec sheets but can't comprehend the full meaning of the information.

    You remind me of a number of people that have been banned from here and you are now repeating the same things in your personal attacks that they said. So rather than an apology Bob, I'll simply say that your emotionally driven agenda is causing you to whine too much.
  19. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gary, I have not attacked you and will not be provoked into attacking you--notwithstanding your continuing unfounded statements about me and my knowledge of water treatment. I am specifically referring to this statement: "while you read spec sheets but can't comprehend the full meaning of the information".

    As to my statements that you sell from a mobile home--here are dictionary definitions of the terms "mobile" and "home":

    mobile–adjective
    1. capable of moving or being moved readily.

    home–noun 1. a house, apartment, or other shelter that is the usual residence of a person, family, or household.

    These definitons seem to fit your living arrangements.




    P.S. here is a definition of avator from Wikipedia that differs a bit from your assertion:

    "An avatar is a computer user's representation of himself/herself or alter ego, whether in the form of a three-dimensional model used in computer games,[1] a two-dimensional icon (picture) or a one-dimensional username used on Internet forums and other communities,[2][3] or a text construct found on early systems such as MUDs. It is an object representing the user. The term "avatar" can also refer to the personality connected with the screen name, or handle, of an Internet user.[4] This sense of the word was coined by Neal Stephenson[5] in 1992's Snow Crash who co-opted it from the Sanskrit word avatāra which is a concept similar to that of incarnation."
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Maybe pictures will help Bob.

    Here is a motor home and a mobile home.
    .
    motorhome..jpg

    ATTACH]10134[/ATTACH]

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
Similar Threads: Water Softener
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Water Softener Prep for Turning Water Off to House Today at 7:51 AM
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Water softener effect on pH Jul 11, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Please help: Culligan water softener Jul 10, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Need new whole-house water softener Jul 6, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Water Softener head units Jul 1, 2014

Share This Page