Water softener selection help

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by chris1044, Apr 25, 2010.

  1. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Yes I am aware of the twin Clack set up. I don't believe it meets Chris's price specification.

    I don't believe the Fleck TwinFlo 100e is currently being sold. I believe the current version of that valve is the TwinFlo SXT. But what is your point. I have not found stagnate water to be a problem with regeneration every 4 days so I don't see much value in that feature.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's because I say on my calculator page "you may" want to regnerate on a 4 day basis; that's to go with a smaller softener to keep cost down Bob and it depends on the volume of iron and how many people in the household.

    As you know I also say I have been treating up to 5 ppm of iron with regular mesh resin without problems for 20+ years if the person will follow my resin cleaning instructions. BTW, I just sold a softener on 3 ppm of iron with 25 gpg hardness for a family of 5 as I was typing my last reply to you. He will use 45K and 14 lbs with 1216 gals on an average of 8 days between regenerations.

    Why do you suggest 4 days Bob, is it because you've read otrhers saying 4 days?

    Well not really but how do you know that Bob, why is it important to Chris IYO and where do you get that information from?
  3. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Twin flow or 8500 is going to be going bye bye.... it has never really been a good one.. the 9000 or the 9100 and the big brother of 9500 are much better valves.

    And just what is the Clack Twin?
  4. chris1044

    chris1044 New Member

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    Location:
    MI
    Bob, you have a PM...
  5. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Chris,

    This website sells the Fleck 7000 and offers SST-60 resin and was the basis for my price comment:

    http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/...me.php?cat=632

    As to a prefilter--unless you get significant amounts of sand or your water is visibly dirty I don't recommend a prefilter. The reason is that it is not really necessary--the regular regeneration process of the softener clears small amounts of dirt just fine--and human nature is to forget to maintain such filters and that can cause significant problems if the filter loads up and reduces flow--it can cause the backwash of the softener to be inadequate because of low water pressure and that can cause the resin to fail with replacement of the resin as the only alternative. ​
  6. chris1044

    chris1044 New Member

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    Location:
    MI
    Here's another question for you...my inlet line on the plumbing is 3/4" CPVC. The Fleck 7000 has a 1" inlet flow valve. Obviously I could redo my inlet line from the well bladder to the softener as 1", but do you know of any 3/4" to 1" adapters for CPVC? If not, any thoughts on the SXT valves? Some appear to be available in a 3/4" inlet....

    Also, what about a media guard? Needed or not....
  7. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

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    The granite state
    Yes, they make a 1 x 3/4 cpvc reducing coupling or you could use a brass 1 x 3/4 bushing at the valve head. Don't use galvanized
  8. chris1044

    chris1044 New Member

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    Location:
    MI
    So I'm positive I'm going with a fleck 7000 SXT, 64k grain capacity. I estimate I'll only need 48k, but I want efficiency and I don't want to be undersized...negatives in doing this?

    I found some with a "bypass" available at 3/4"....this the same as inlet/outlet connections?

    Also, what are the thoughts on the turbulator? And what about C-239 resin vs. the SST-60...opinions on that?

    All said and done I should have less than 900 into it installed and filled, so I think I'll be fairly happy.
  9. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    The Bypass on the 7000 is different than the 2510 or 5600.. but there are some 3 or 4 different fittings that the bypass can take,, There should be one that is 1" and it is either male thread or female thread.. find out which one and you can make the change to the CPVC that you have.
  10. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Look at page 26 of the Fleck 7000 manual for a list of all the different connections that are available for the bypass. I suggest you get the 1" threaded (NPT) and then use a brass or stainless steel coupling to provide a female threaded connector that the CPVC can connect to.

    C-249 is a brand name "high capacity resin". For your installation with iron the SST-60 is a superior resin.

    I like turbulators with well water with iron. Not absolutely necessary but nice to have in my view.

    I don't recommend going to the 2 cubic foot softener if you intend to regenerate every 4 days as I believe you should. The reason is the salt dose for the estimated usage becomes somewhat low for your iron content. To put it differently with iron you don't want to go to very low salt doses (measured in lbs per cubic foot of resin) and if you fix the regeneration interval at 4 days then with your number of people/estimated water use the computed salt dose gets a bit low. Additionally you don't need a 2 cubic foot softener--SST-60 resin supports about 60% higher flow rates with less leakage than standard resin so where a standard 1.5 cubic foot softener would provide good service up to 12 gpm flow rates the SST-60 will provide good service to substantially higher flow rates.
  11. chris1044

    chris1044 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    MI
    Excellent...thanks for the response Bob! I had a hunch that going to big isn't necessarily a good thing here. 1.5 Cu Ft Fleck 7000, SST resin, w/turbulator is what I'm going to be purchasing. I'm going to look into various connections avail out there today...will post pics/updates after I get it in.

    Thanks again,
    Chris
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Chris.... the constant SFR gpm of a 1.5 cuft softener is 12 gpm regardless of the type of resin, if your peak demand is greater, then the volume of resin can not remove all the hardness.

    You do not need a Turbualtor with 2 ppm of iron but with one you can't have a gravel underbed. And a gravel underbed allows proper backwashing and regneration of all the resin in the tank the same as a Turbulator.

    You also don't need SST-60 resin and you should not expect better efficiency or a higher capacity per lb of salt used etc..
  13. chris1044

    chris1044 New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    MI
    Numero uno: I don't think my SFR GMP is greater than 12gpm....I have 3/4" CPVC through the home. Its 2.5 bath...are you saying I need a larger softener?

    Numero two: I know i don't need a turbulator...but if it helps, why not. Gravel underbed? This is the first I suppose I've heard that you have to have one to properly backwash...care to explain?

    I know I dont need SST-60 resin either, but the data doesn't lie, it seems more efficient based of the data I've read...what are the other options? C-239?

    I'm an engineer, so I'd like full explanations on why I don't need things...thus far, really bob has been the most helpful in explaining why those things would be good to have....you on the other hand, seem as though you're trying to make a sale...
  14. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    1,494
    Location:
    Alaska
    My sheets say that a 1.5 cubic has a standard flow rate of 9gpm and peak of 13gpm... so a 1.5 will work for your size house and pipes.

    Turbos and gravel do not go together.. either use a turbo or use the standard gravel under bed...

    C-249 from Sybron is standard softener resin, C-266 is the fine..
    C-249 has lower pressure drop
    C-266 has higher pressure drop
    C-249 has lower grain capacity per lbs of salt
    C-266 has higher grain capacity per lbs of salt
    Normal home the differnces are small.. Commercial the difference can be big.

    C-249 has been around for years and is bullet proof... it is one of if not the best resin for home use.

    You have been doing lots of reading of the information that is out there on types of valves, resin and that is making you a better buyer.
  15. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Turbulator, gravel, your choice.

    SST60 does give better performance. More money though. In your case, I would go with it.

    You don't need anything bigger.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I'm not sure, I can't recall what all has been said in this thread and won't take the time to go look it up right now. But it depends on what your peak demand is and your guessing it isn't over 12 gpm could be a mistake on your part. And now we have AKpsdvan saying 9-13 gpm for a 1.5 cuft. You should be asking yourself how much experience do you and Bob have in sizing a softener for houses with any number of bathrooms? I've been doing it for many years for actual customers. IMO you and Bob haven't. IIRC I have told you to replace the 3/4" CPVC.

    See now when someone says "but if it helps" I think they are guessing and don't know for sure and that's why I replied to you (again) but you don't see it as helpful and I'll bet that others reading this now and long into the future may disagree with you.

    There are disadvantages with the use of a Turbulator distributor tube. One is no gravel underbed. Another is you can not use fine mesh resin. Another is that the softener will use more water for regeneration because to get the Turbulator to work correctly you need a larger gpm DLFC. There are many advantages to a gravel underbed and no disadvantages except for the small $10-15 cost of one.

    "It seems..." I agree but in the real world as opposed to a test bed set of data on Purolite's site, you don't gain what the data seems to say you could. And if you size and program correctly to start with with the lowest cost regular mesh resin, you don't need slightly higher efficiencies of SST or C-249 that I used for about 18 years until I learned better, or to pay roughly $100 more per cuft for SST and never recover any of that extra expense. Or $40 more per cuft for C-249 to get a max of only 200 grains more capacity per cuft.

    Yes I am a lowly softener salesman. And I sell equipment to many people that ask questions in forums. Do you see any of them coming back to any forum anywhere and complaining that the equipment they bought from me didn't deliver what I told them it would? Google and I can't find any so you might think about that a bit before you discount what I'm telling you.

    As to Bob being helpful, he is dazzling you with engineer speak but no one that leads you into something that isn't needed or that will cause a failure of equipment is helpful in the end but...

    If I were the type of salesman you, Bob and AKpsdvan etc. may be thinking I am, why would I not be agreeing with them and attempting to sell you what those folks are suggesting is best for you?

    Do you notice that Bob usually doesn't mention any of the disadvantages of the things he suggests you buy? Including the Fleck 7000? I.E. another potential disadvantage of a Turbulator is excessive wear, bead breakage, of the resin. He probably hasn't read that on any spec sheet yet but when he checks it out, he'll be repeating what I say.

    Question; Who do you know that should know more about softeners than a dealer (lowly salesman to you I guess) with all but a quarter century of experience in sizing selling and servicing many brands of control valves and 13 years of posting answers all over the internet (since 2002 here) to questions like yours and 7 years of internet sales from Alaska all across Canada and the US to Purto Rico where anyone with a problem with equipment they bought from me can tell everyone that will read the posts?

    To check that out do a Goggle search for "Gary Slusser" with the "" and see if you can find dissatisified customers.
  17. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    I have sold, serviced and installed equipment for better than 30 years now. I've seen products come and go. If you talk to the manufacturers reps from just about any company they will all to a tee give you a handfull of reasons why the equipment they sell is better than the other guy's. It's the nature of the business. If there was one manufacturer, and only a couple of choices of equipment that would serve all needs then the world would be a much easier place to do business in. But like any product, there are dozens of manufacturers and dozens of products. It's making the wise choice that matters in the end. That choice will always be a balance between quality, price and availability. We can argue till the cows come home about proper sizing, up flow, down flow, turbulator, gravel bed and a host of other issues but in the end most of the products out there are going to do what they claim to do. Those of us that sell, service and install will always have a bias toward the equipment and methods that we feel comfortable with. If everyone agreed on these things there would be no need for forums, blogs or anyone elses opinions at all. I can't say I have always agreed with the opinions on this (and many other) forums but I do know that nobody here is intentionaly trying to steer you in the wrong direction.
  18. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Location:
    Pennsylvania

    gary---If you were half the person you try to make yourself out to be you would stop bashing me and other posters and stick to posting your views and recommendations. There are people in this world with long experience and there are people in this world with an experience that has been repeated many times. I am beginning to think you are one of the latter.

    As to the quoted statement above--back it up or take it back!
  19. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Contrary to the view posted above I don't believe that it is necessary to increase the size of the DLFC when installing a Turbulator. In my experience Turbulators work just fine using the same size DLFC as would be used with a standard distributor.

    Of course if you do increase the size of the DLFC, as the poster apparently does, then it is understandable that bead breakage and excessive wear could occur. This is a great example of a salesman creating a problem and solving it with his preferred equipment.
  20. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The above statement is not correct if you believe what has been posted by the same person elsewhere. I have no way of knowing what his actual experience and work history is (this is the internet and individuals can post whatever they want about themselves--anyone who puts a lot of stock in what individuals post about themselves does so at their own risk) but I do know that the above statement conflicts with what he has posted elsewhere.

    Specifically, he has posted elsewhere that he has been living in a (no fixed address mobile home) motor home for the past several years and selling water softeners on the internet. Not "servicing many brands of control valves" and not a dealer.
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