Water softener possibly backflowing?

[Watersoftenerhelp]

Hi, I have a geothermal with a constant pressure well pump and while the geothermal is running my water softener has the symbol on like its running. This also happens when I have the exterior faucets and the spigot. I also have verified that while my exterior spigots are running they're definitely not getting softened water. Does it sound like my water softener is backflowing? It appears when my geothermal is running it seems to eat up my softeners capacity? Do i just need to install a check valve on my incoming water to my softener?What could be causing this?

 

[Bannerman]

Post a diagram accurately showing how it all is plumbed.

Temporarily turn off the inlet valve to the softener and keep the bypass closed so as to test which faucets stop receiving water. Maybe water will also stop flowing to the geothermal and outside spigots in addition to your interior faucets.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Most modern electronic water flow meters don't differentiate between the flow direction so any water flow, even mild fluctuations will cause the meter to see water flow. Be careful installing a check valve. Thermal expansion needs to be considered prior to doing this.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

Most modern electronic water flow meters don't differentiate between the flow direction so any water flow, even mild fluctuations will cause the meter to see water flow. Be careful installing a check valve. Thermal expansion needs to be considered prior to doing this.

Ok, so is there anything I can do about it? I have 2 expansion tanks in my plumbing, one before the water heater on the cold side, and one near the piping to my geothermal.

 

[ditttohead]

Sounds good, Installing a check before and/or after the softener will likely help the situation.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

Sounds good, Installing a check before and/or after the softener will likely help the situation.

What would plumbers do to stop this situation with having electronic water softener? It's also metered with my sprinklers on? Is this the proper thing to do?

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

Also, does it have something to do with me having a constant pressure well pump? I have a constant pressure 2HP well pump. Everything that light comes on when water is flowing *even unsoftened* the meter on the water softener starts running.

 

[ditttohead]

Sounds good, Installing a check before and/or after the softener will likely help the situation.

 

[Reach4]

For check valves in a well system, people usually recommend a spring-loaded check valve. For that use, you want to avoid a "swing check valve". The advantage of a swing check valve seems to be it has a lower pressure drop, and the spring-loaded check valve is more positive. I don't know what would be better for this use, but you might want to read up or get other suggestions on selecting a check valve for this use. You would need a thermal expansion tank somewhere downstream of the check valve.

 

[Bannerman]

Have you shut-off the inlet to the softener so as to confirm what is and what is not receiving softened water?

Is there a pressure tank or booster pump located downstream of the softener? For water to be flowing backwards through the softener, would signify the pressure is higher downstream to the softener compared to upstream. That would not make sense unless a pressure tank or pump is located downstream from the softener.

Also verify that the outlet and inlet flow is correct through the softener. As you own an Autotrol control valve, the outlet will be on the right side when facing the softener from the front, which is directly opposite to the inlet and outlet connections on Fleck and Clack control valves.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

Hi, I have not shut off the inlet to the softener. What I did is test each of the spouts and everything with test strips for hardness. I have very hard water (25PPM+++) so the strips turn red real quick when its not using softened water.

Here's some pictures of how the piping looks going to my softener, and one of the thermal expansion tanks

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

I also included a picture of my geothermal pump and dump system. That for some reason is receiving softened water. Which is eating up my softener. I have very high iron and hard water. So maybe this was done intentionally and maybe its stealing the water from backflowing?

This house was a builders personal house.

I'm trying to figure out all the small kinks in it.

 

[Bannerman]

I have very hard water (25PPM+++)

I don't know what type of hardness strips would be indicating PPM as 25ppm would not be hard. Perhaps the strips are indicating grains per gallon. If you're going to perform your own testing and maintenance, you will need appropriate tools which is a Hach 5B for hardness and a separate test kit for iron.

Keeping to the simplest method, shut off the inlet directly at the softener to establish what no longer is receiving water flow.

and one of the thermal expansion tanks

So this seems to signify there is more than one expansion tank?? Where are the others located??

Pictures do not show how water flows to the heat pump, to un-softened faucets and to the house interior fixtures which is why I had earlier requested a diagram showing how everything is plumbed. You will then need to follow the plumbing line from the well, noting everything connected before and after the softener.

If water is flowing backwards through the softener, something is pushing it backwards so you will need to investigate to determine why.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

so you want me to put the water softener in bypass? Then run water to see if the meter on the softener is showing water flow? The problem with that is, every single thing in my house makes the meter on the softener show water flow.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

I have no idea how this house was plumed I do have the original build plans and paperwork for the house.

 

[ditttohead]

For starters, if you want to DIY, then you must get some real testing done. Saying you have 25+++ grains really means nothing. The hardness is a direct correlation to the systems capacity. 50 Grains will yield less than half the capacity of 25. A real hardness reading is a must. Iron is also a number that must be accurate as it uses considerably more than softening. We use a simple calculation (estimate) of each ppm of iron is the same as 85 ppm of hardness. Manganese is even worse. You can send a sample out to a lab (Highly recommended) either Kar Labs or NTL Labs are the preferred ones by most of the guys on this site.

If you have considerable iron or other contaminants, we can assess those and try to get the system dialed in. Regardless, if you have iron and the softener has not been chemically stripped regularly, this will need to be done, or the resin may also need to be replaced.

Spring/Swing checks... I have strong opinions on both that are constantly changing. After 30 years of working with both... I would lean toward swing as they tend to last longer but... they must be installed correctly. Regardless, the installation of a high quality check valve is more important than the type in my opinion. I have seen way too many check valves fail in only a couple years. These are always some unknown off brand. Stick with Apollo, USA Nibco, or some other higher end version and you should do fine. Stay away from the really cheap ones that are so common at the low cost plumbing stores.

And... don't forget your thermal expansion testing anytime you install a check valve. Water expands a lot when heated, that water has to have somewhere to go.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

I meant to say 25PGP and a 425+PPM as a hardness test. But I can send my water to a lab. Would the best location to get the water for the test woul be the outside spigot? I also have really bad staining in my toilet bowls. I am just trying to dial this system in. I also should tell you that this house softener sat unused for 2 years and in bypass mode. I probably need to have the resin pulled out and replaced i'm assuming?

I also bought 3 of these valves to have one as a replacement


Milwaukee spring valve.

I also have another expansion tank on the cold side going into my boiler.

Ditto, I also ordered the 90 kit from Karlabs. So the community can help me dial this in.

I also am going to hire a plumber to sweat the valves on. I was thinking about getting them installed at this location as circled in red.

 

[ditttohead]

The link shows that they are 1.5", your plumbing appears to be 1".

As to dialing it in, without water test results it is very difficult to program. Resin replacement is a good idea but we really need to know the water conditions. Iron, manganese, pH, etc are all very important to know in order to set the system accurately. The Kar lab kit will do this very nicely.

If the resin has been sitting for 2 years I would be concerned about biologic fouling. Do not bleach the resin if you want to sanitize. It should be acid stripped first, then sanitized otherwise the bleach tends to lock the iron onto the resin to the point that removal will be nearly impossible.

 

[Watersoftenerhelp]

The plumbing in my house is 1.5". I just purchased the kit from Karlabs. I will report back with the lab results. When I started using the softener, I had dumped bleach in the salt tank and ran the softener manual regen as the manual for the softener told me so. After a month, I used Iron out in my tank. Could that be the reason even with softener water my toilets are getting stained? I have 6 toilets in my house and i only regularly use 2 of them. I never see any of the other ones so cleaning the bowls every few months is no fun. I bet however the test results will help you point me in the right direction instead of all the guesswork I am giving you.

I appreciate everyones help.

 

[Bannerman]

so you want me to put the water softener in bypass?

No!. If you bypass the softener, then hard water will continue to flow to all fixtures and spigots and therefore 'spoil' the test.

If you turn off only the softener inlet (or outlet) directly at the softener, then the flow should stop only to fixtures plumbed to receive soft water. Since items intended for 'hard' water (outside spigots & geothermal) are to be connected before the softener (between the pressure tank and softener), closing the softener inlet should not affect their flow.

When I said to buy the Hach test kits, that was not implying not to have lab testing performed. From a prior thread, I had thought you had lab testing already performed but perhaps I am mistaken.