Water savings

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by 6t7gto, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. 6t7gto

    6t7gto DIY Junior Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Bedford, Ohio
    I have one 3.5 toilet that may get used 6 times a day.
    If I change it out to a 1.6 toilet, how much savings can I realize? In dollars.
    Here is a sample of a water bill similar to water usage in my home. 2 people.
    I'm wondering if it is cost wise to change the toilet.
    thanks,
    david

    Attached Files:

  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,493
    Location:
    IL
    1 MCF = 7,480 Gallons of Water. For your extra gallons, you pay $0.00394 per gallon. With your numbers, you would save $16.40 per year.
  3. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,351
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    I think the formula is more complex than that, Just by looking at the way that bill charges.

    There may be some sewage savings.

    If I had a $250 water bill I would move to a better location.


    Cleveland is high class now I guess.
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    989
    Location:
    ct
    And to think people piss n moan when they get a bill for $3000.00 to replace a pump, pipe and wire along with the labor that has provided them with water for 15 years.
  5. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,351
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    Counting the electrical power, that would be less than $25 a month.


    I figure the GOV will have us metering our private water wells soon.


    Not sure how they will Tax the air that we breath. But technology is getting better.
  6. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    711
    Location:
    VA
    That sample bill is for 3 months (not 1). The meter read dates were 3/12 and 6/06. So, it is like $80/month. The example user used ~15,000 gallons [2 MCF] (or about 5000 gallons per month).

    Savings (gallons) would be 6*(3.5-1.6)*365=4161 gallons/year

    If all charges are proportional to use (ignore fixed charges), you would save about 82% of one months cost (4161/5000)*80 = $66.58

    It looks like about $7/month out of the $80 is fixed, so the real savings would be closer to: (4161/5000)*73 = $60.75/year

    These are all rough numbers, but should be pretty close. We would need a better breakdown of sewer charges, etc. to get closer.
  7. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,493
    Location:
    IL
    Oooh..., yes, I missed the sewer charge and "local charges". Big omission.

    If I presume the "local charges" and sewer charges stay proportional to water, that toilet now saves $57.09 per year -- 348% times as much as I had originally calculated. If those other charges were not proportional to the water portion, that changes things of course.
  8. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,351
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    Good Find nukeman.

    That sounds better.

    I guess they save by reading the meter every 3 months.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,874
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Like a lot of things, your return on investment may never catch up with your initial investment, at least in the short term., especially if you have some lawn irrigation water in the mix.
  10. Hammerlane

    Hammerlane Member

    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    Ohio
    I am familiar with Cleveland Water and yes they bill quarterly. They bill for water usage to figure what is owed to them and they also bill for the NEORSD (Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District) and bill for them. Other local charges on the bill depending on the community or suburb served may be for trash collection or something else that water consumption does not affect

    SO water consumption affects:

    1. the Cleveland Division of Water bill
    2. the NEORSD sewer charge

    $55.45 is what the NEORSD charges per MCF of water consumption to treat sewage.
    $29.48 is what the Division of Water charges for a thousand cubic feet of water after the first 0.6 MCF
    7480 is the number of gallons in a MCF

    Disregarding any fixed charges for the water, a gallon of water cost $29.48 / 7480 = $0.0039 (which is 0.39 cents)
    Disregarding the base charge for sewer, the cost to treat a gallon water is $55.45 / 7480 = $0.0074 (which is 0.74 cents)

    So the total cost for a gallon of water is $0.0039 + $0.0074 = $0.0113 (which is 1.3 cents)


    If you save 4161 gallons a year by saving 11.4 gallons a day by saving 1.9 gallons per every 6 flushes,

    Then you save (4161 gallons) * ($0.0113 per gallon) = $47 a year.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  11. 6t7gto

    6t7gto DIY Junior Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Bedford, Ohio
    Sewer rate is $58.15 per mcf per quarter. Fixed fee of $21.00 per quarter for the meter.
    Based on the example... 2mcf times $58.15 = $116.30 for sewer plus $21.00 = 137.30.
    Our suburb does not get charged the $51.31 local charges shown on the bill. So back that out.
    Where am I at now, with savings, for the expense of a new toilet?

    I type too slow. Seems hammerlane has it figured out. Thanks.

    So it seems that if I upgrade to a Toto Drake for 300 or so dollars if will take me about 6 years to break even?
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  12. Hammerlane

    Hammerlane Member

    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    Ohio
    Yeah if you live in a suburb you get charged a little more for sewage than Cleveland residents.

    Believe it or not I kind of already had this figured. My grandmother(Bless her heart) would not flush the toilet after each sitting for #1. So I figured it out for her to see how much see is actually saving from not flushing. It turned out at that time to be just about one cent.
  13. dj2

    dj2 Member

    Messages:
    425
    Location:
    California
    In LA, where water is a scarce commodity, I pay about 0.75 cent per gallon (including sewer charge).
    In CLE, where water is abundant, people pay 1.3 cent per gallon? - makes no sense at all.

    But as far as your savings switching to TOTO: I think it's worth it. In LA changing to 1.6 tanks is the law.

    The real winner is the water supplier. When every customer switches to 1.6 toilets, they end up delivering less water, except they don't pass the saving (of maintaining their pipes, upgrading or changing the, and other costs) to their customers.

    In other words, they over charge (or rip off) their best customers. Now you know how they can afford to offer sky high salaries to their employees.
  14. dj2

    dj2 Member

    Messages:
    425
    Location:
    California
    In LA we say: If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down!
  15. Hammerlane

    Hammerlane Member

    Messages:
    254
    Location:
    Ohio
    Back in 2011, the Water Dept raised rated drastically. They cited declining revenue. Which was a result of declining usage. So they had us conserving water but then backdoored us by raising rates.


    Must of been the motto my grandmother lived by.
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,493
    Location:
    IL
    Looking at http://www.lacitysan.org/ http://dpw.lacounty.gov/wwd/web/Documents/WaterRates/TieredRateSchedule.pdf I cannot find an LA water charge of more than 2 cents for that last gallon. There are fixed amounts. The last hcf (hundred cubic feet) of water can hit over $8, and the last hcf of sewage can go over $4, but 1 hcf is 748 gallons.

    Maybe I am missing something, but at 75 cents per gallon, people would be building their own solar stills for drinking water and hauling in tanks of water from the ocean to flush with.
  17. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    711
    Location:
    VA
    He said 0.75 cents (not 75 cents). His point is that LA should be more expensive than OH, since LA has less water available.
  18. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,493
    Location:
    IL
    Yer right. It seems obvious now.

    Yep. There is a lot of water in Lake Erie.
  19. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,874
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; So they had us conserving water but then backdoored us by raising rates.

    The electric utilities are doing the same thing as people start to conserve electricity.
  20. dj2

    dj2 Member

    Messages:
    425
    Location:
    California
    And why stop with the electric company?

    What about the cable provider? your insurance carrier? gas companies? food makers? property tax collectors? ...and the list goes on.

    The last time I was looking in the mirror, I didn't see a cow. Cash Cow that is.
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