Water heaters...and finding a good installer.

[Bimwad]

My head is spinning. I need a new gas water heater and have read a gazillion thoughts here and on other forums as to what to get.

The preferred choices seem to be a Bradford White or a Rheem-made unit.

I believe my old one that just expired was made by Rheem...in 1988, so I have no problems buying another one. Their primary weakness seems to be the failsafe mechanism that renders the entire thing useless if it trips. How much of a risk is this?

From the comments, I can't discern any such large weaknesses in the B-W heaters. Is there one? Are they really worth seeking out over the Rheems?

The other things that puzzle me are the love/hate relationships with the store-branded clones from GE/Rheem and particularly Sears/AO Smith/State.

The hassle of dealing with Home Depot and/or GE plus their subs seems to work against those units. I can understand that very well.

What's puzzling is how the Kenmore/AO Smith/State units can be OK at times, and not at others (excluding one notable individual who universally loathes them). How can this be if they all come from the same company?


I'm also having difficulty pulling the trigger on Plumber Roulette after calling darned near ever listing in the phone book. I've been quoted from around $800-1200 for a new 40 gallon heater.

What kind of questions should I ask to help separate the wheat from the chaff? Which items (lines, fittings?) are typically replaced, or must be replaced along with the heater?

My installation seems to be straightforward; the heater sits on a raised box in the garage, against an interior wall. Is what I'm being quoted reasonable? What particularly scares me is the caveat everyone gives about work that may be required to be brought up to code. How can an installation that has sufficed for over 35 years and three heaters not be good enough any longer? If there are newly-discovered dangers to be rectified, shouldn't that be compulsory for everyone and not delayed until some other event triggers action?

I see this task as a relatively straightforward replacement. Remove the old and install the new. I guess what I have problems digesting is all the potential extra complication and cost that has forced itself into the equation.

I welcome your perspectives.

 

[Jimbo]

As to your second question, codes and standards do change, and usually existing installations are grandfathered until replaced. The likely possibilities are (1) your TP discharge may just dump to the floor, and that will not fly today. (2) If in Calif. you will have to come up to earthquake specs (3) You may be required, and it may well be at least recommended, to install an expansion tank.

None of these items will break the bank, but they will be "extra"/

The Rheems are very good. The failsafe ( FVIR) design has proved to be reliable so far. Only if you experience an FVIR "incident" does it have to be replaced. Unlikely.

If you call around to good plumbers in your area, you should find many of them who install either Rheem/Ruud or Bradford White. Can't go wrong there.

The State/Whirlpool/A.O. Smith( all one company) design has not proven reliable. I have heard about class action suits, but cannot confirm that personally.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

In my small city, all new or replaced WH tanks must also be plumbed with vacuum breaker and a temperaing valve. That can add a fair amount to the costs (HD claims $250). So, without knowing your local requirements and labor charges...it is really hard to say.

 

[hj]

store brands

It is my opinion, and it seems to be borne out by numerous examples, that the items that HD and similar stores buy skip some final inspection steps to save money. Therefore defective units or those missing parts will be sent to the stores and YOU become the final inspector when you install them and then have to take them out and exchange them. My favorite example was a defective Kohler toilet that was blatantly defective and should never have left the plant, (in fact it had the factory's sign of a defect on it) The customer tried to make it work for 2 weeks before calling me. One look and I knew it was defective, but Kohler insists that defective items NEVER leave the plant.

 

[Jimbo]

I believe I have seen that same thing with Kohler......a toilet that obviously is blemished, and has marks which could be a QA inspectors crayon....and it is boxed and shipped. I call it the "Friday afternoon syndrome"........they have an order for say 5000 pieces, must ship by Friday. By the time they get down to topping off the container, they are scrambling to find units. Little blemishes get reworked, and ultimately, someone turns their back and those final few units magically get boxed and packed!

 

[Kordts]

I am probably the highest T&M water heater installer around. I use brass nipples, sharkbites, and a fullport drain valve. Other guys beat me by a hundred dollars. They don't touch the drain valve and use dielectrics. Who gives the best value? For a hundred dollars more, my installations will last several years longer. Compare apples to apples.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

codes and enforcements

BIM-WAD???



In our town their are a few compaines out there
that literally try to shove a PRV valve and a therm exp tank
down the customers throats after the job has already started for about $800 extra ..stateing stuff like the
"codes need to be enforced" and or they got high water pressure.. which voids their warranty on the heater..
....bla bla bla....

to me its a dirty --rotten way --to make a buck.
hideing behind the skirttails of the "code' to go around
breaking it off in some poor little old lady....with over inflated prices......


around here most hardware stores just come out and slap in the heaters and usually "grandfather " them in as they
sit....and do ti for pratically nothing.

. this is very hard to compete with if you are a a real plumbing company....

We offer the optioins to the customer and let them decide
to either make the upgrades or sign of on them.




The Bradfords are probably the best

the Rheeem and Ge seem to be pretty good
and we have run into less and less of the things
trippping out.... either one will suffice....

although I am peeved at Rheem for prostituteing themselves to Home Depot and selling the heaters
sometimes cheaper than I can buy one for at my supplier..


either unit will do ok.....

Honestly--- installing a water heater is not brain surgery....
thats is why they sell them in the hardware stores....

its your choice and gamble on who you trust to do the install

and wether they will warranty their product..........

Go to the BBB for referrals..
..

 

[Bimwad]

In our town their are a few compaines out there that literally try to shove a PRV valve and a therm exp tank down the customers throats after the job has already started for about $800 extra ..stateing stuff like the "codes need to be enforced" and or they got high water pressure.. which voids their warranty on the heater....bla bla bla...to me its a dirty --rotten way --to make a buck. hideing behind the skirttails of the "code' to go around breaking it off in some poor little old lady....with over inflated prices......

This is what I'm most concerned about. Only those in the trade or with the agency are going to know the codes, and even then, different people can interpret the codes differently.

In the typical situation, the consumer is already at a distinct disadvantage; the water is leaking, there's no hot water, and it must be rectified, immediately. It's a perfect opportunity for the unscrupulous to take further advantage of the situation by citing some sacred codes known only to the insiders.

I took a look at a neighbor's recent replacement. Holy crap, with all the extras attached and considering the total cost of the thing, no wonder they call it their new "space ship". They could have been taken for a ride, or the govt. has enacted some draconian new requirements. With the way things are run now, one has to wonder in whose interests these requirements are actually made.

One outfit came to size up the job and give me a quote. Everything was signed, sealed and delivered. Then he realized that one requirement changed and the estimate went up by 50%. To me, at least, that's not a great way to inspire faith, nor trust in their knowledge at the least; who knows about their work.

Honestly--- installing a water heater is not brain surgery....thats is why they sell them in the hardware stores...its your choice and gamble on who you trust to do the install and wether they will warranty their product..........

If I can DIY, I usually do. If I could find assistance, I would probably install the darned thing myself.

However, in this case, I can't, so I have no problem paying an honest and reputable pro for their work. Finding one in today's world is the hardest task. I hate gambling.

 

[hj]

jimbo

I don't think it is a case of the Friday afternoon syndrome. I think it is more a case of HD ordering 5,000 pieces and they get the first 5,000 pieces produced, regardless of their quality or defects. After all, if the customer returns it all they have to do it replace it. IF the customer thinks that is the way it should be or does not notice the defect, they have saved tossing that one away.

 

[Gary Swart]

Since you can't do this yourself, my suggestion is to find a well established plumbing company, buy the heater from them and have them install it. I won't say a water heater installation can't be hacked, we've seen many examples of unbelievable work on this forum, but most any licensed plumber would do an acceptable job on this. A totally new installation is a bit more complex, due to gas or electrically considerations, but a straight forward remove and replace a tank is really pretty simple.