Water Heater Connectors Leaking

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Jerome2877

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ok fair enough. Interesting though as I'm on Vancouver Island (also earthquake country) and most HWT's are hard piped. We do require earthquake strapping but not flex connecters.
 

Terry

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Different country. I live a little South in the Seattle area.
Mexico to the South has no codes to speak of, and Vancouver Island dumps their raw sewage into the straits of Juan De Fuca.
Here in Washington State, we have sewage treatment plants.
Is that why the octopus get so large off of Vancouver Island?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/108980_octopus17.shtml
 
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Jerome2877

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Thats Victioria that dumps raw sewage and we are finally going to install a treatment plant, its just being aproved now. It is a bit embarrassing that a place thats supposed to be green still dumps raw sewage though!
 

jasonbaur

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I talking about hard copper with fittings soldered rather than the flex lines.

Ah ok I see, yea I am from california.

Well I guess for now I will lower my PSI to 50 tomorrow untill I can get a expansion tank to be on the safe side. Thanks for everyones suggestions and info, I will keep you posted. Tomorrow I am going to a plumbing store hopefully they have some nice flex copper supply lines or braided whichever can do that crazy S shape.

:)
 

Gary Swart

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Going back a ways in this thread, I think there needs to be a clarification of terms. A PRV is a pressure regulator that is installed on the incoming water supply line. It might well be call a pressure reducer, because it is used when the water supply pressure is too high. A T/P valve or Temperature/Pressure valve is installed on the water heater either on the top or topside depending on the manufacturer. This is a safety device to protect the tank (and house) in case of a malfunction of temperature or pressure. Temperature and Pressure are related in that when water heats it expands and with no place for the expansion to go, the heater becomes something like a pressure cooker. The pressure can rise so much the tank will explode. The T/P is designed to trip and release this pressure if the temperature reached boiling or the pressure reaches 150 psi. Now this is old hat to most of us, but to a novice, the terms for and uses of these devices can be confusing. A thermal expansion tank should always be installed when a PRV is installed as this gives the expanded water a temporary place to go. Lowering the PRV setting will not prevent water expansion. Actually, 50 psi is plenty high enough pressure. That's what my PRV is set for. BTW, the expansion tank is air charged and the pressure should be the same as the PRV setting. If I'm not mistaken, they come preset at 45 psi (don't take that without checking) Use a tire gauge to check. These contain only a small volume of air, so use extreme caution when adding air. It would be very easy to rupture the diaphram.
 

jasonbaur

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Going back a ways in this thread, I think there needs to be a clarification of terms. A PRV is a pressure regulator that is installed on the incoming water supply line. It might well be call a pressure reducer, because it is used when the water supply pressure is too high. A T/P valve or Temperature/Pressure valve is installed on the water heater either on the top or topside depending on the manufacturer. This is a safety device to protect the tank (and house) in case of a malfunction of temperature or pressure. Temperature and Pressure are related in that when water heats it expands and with no place for the expansion to go, the heater becomes something like a pressure cooker. The pressure can rise so much the tank will explode. The T/P is designed to trip and release this pressure if the temperature reached boiling or the pressure reaches 150 psi. Now this is old hat to most of us, but to a novice, the terms for and uses of these devices can be confusing. A thermal expansion tank should always be installed when a PRV is installed as this gives the expanded water a temporary place to go. Lowering the PRV setting will not prevent water expansion. Actually, 50 psi is plenty high enough pressure. That's what my PRV is set for. BTW, the expansion tank is air charged and the pressure should be the same as the PRV setting. If I'm not mistaken, they come preset at 45 psi (don't take that without checking) Use a tire gauge to check. These contain only a small volume of air, so use extreme caution when adding air. It would be very easy to rupture the diaphram.

Great info thanks, so yea I need the expansion tank as you all said but I have some questions. Firstly I lowered my PSI to 45 and lowered the thermostat on the heater to 100 degrees and its still climbing to around 100 psi within 30-40 minutes is that normal? Despite the fact I don't have the expansion tank yet how many gallons you figure is pushing through? I am thinking of getting the biggest size they have but I also saw a few videos on youtube of a plumber opening up some bad tanks and showing some really nasty water. I don't drink from my tap but honestly it was dark black water really horrific and I am not sure I want to risk having such a device if it that can happen, is there any other solutions or devices? If there is no other solution the other questions I have are does it have be mounted on a wall or hung from the ceiling and can I use flex line connector? I read all about the tanks and watched a few videos and frankly it seems that they can go bad real quick and have to be checked often or you end up with that nasty water I saw in the video really hoping for a long term solution.
 
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Terry

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Most of us are using the 2.2 gallon expansion tanks. How come I don't get those yucky calls? We've been installing these things for years. It's a plumbing code thing. There are millions of these things installed. But sure, anything can go bad.
 

Jadnashua

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That pressure rise it the EXACT reason why you need an expansion tank. If you were to empty the WH, then fill it with cold water, and didn't use any while it reheated, the pressure would likely be considerably higher. The bigger the temperature difference between the incoming water and how much you have to heat and how hot you make it determines how much the pressure will rise.

Now, if everything is static and the pressure rises, the PRV is bad, but throw in heating the water, and without somewhere to go, it WILL rise, regardless of the starting pressure or the incoming temp or how much you heat it.
 

jasonbaur

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Alrighty, well I will purchase one tonight online any recommendations brands etc would be helpful. Here is the video I saw well 2 videos actually same guy showing these videos of the tanks gone bad if anyone cares to check it out link below.


 
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jasonbaur

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I went ahead and purchased the expansion tank online 2 gallon one as recommended, I made sure not to purchase the brand shown in the video for obvious reasons. I went to a plumbing supply store today but I wasn't able to get in, not open to the public is that common in this trade? Anyway I found another supplier I will try tomorrow, called and made sure its open to the general public hopefully they carry the fancy flex lines.
 

jasonbaur

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Many supply houses are only open to the trades.

Bummer, guess they don't want newbie customers walking in like me asking a million questions :p.

On a different note I was doing some research on water heaters and came across this video. Its rather scary what's lurking in homes just a few feet away when this is possible. Not to mention a fun watch :)


 
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jasonbaur

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Update, no more leaking supply lines but I still have the pressure increase problem. I purchased the expansion tank and before I could install it I had to turn off the heater/pilot and drain all the hot water out of the tank so that I could sync the house pressure with the expansion tank pressure, well turns out the pressure still raised slowly from 40-60 within minutes which would have to be a bad regulator. I also got an email back from my city's water utilities and there is no back flow prevention systems installed to the houses so its not a closed system, that's why the old heater never had an expansion tank I'm guessing. I am going to place a call to wilkins tomorrow the manufacturer of the regulator and see what parts I need to repair the unit hopefully.
 

Ballvalve

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Exactly! I think the guys giving all this advice should chip in and buy you a new pressure reducing valve. Really, its disgraceful that these thermal expansion tanks are being reccomended and used when most if not all PRV's have a built in thermal expansion bypass. I wish I had found this thread earlier.

You were told to put in an expansion tank when it was clear that you had a bad regulator, and the pressure in the house probably exceeded the rating of the tank - which would NEVER do anything to help a run wild regulator, except to perhaps blow up or blow a bladder.

Did'nt anyone notice that his system worked for 20 years without high pressure or an expansion tank?

If anyone doubts the reliability of the thermal expansion bypass, then add a 75 psi or adjustable 8$ well-type pressure relief valve. Only THAT will save you from 150 psi water and tell you real quick that your regulator AND its thermal bypass failed....
A 2 gallon expansion tank is just a nothing under those conditions. Save them for CLOSED boiler systems.

Here is the link for a watts chinese one. Click on "additional information" http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/WATTS-Water-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-1GAH6?Pid=search

Water heater flex line have "loose threads" and are irrelevant to sealing. The sealing surface is the face of the nipple. Almost all nipples have a surface totally unsuitable for sealing to a washer and should be sanded or filed flat and de-burred. If I had a "Master plumber" in my house and he did not do that, I would send him home quick.

I would have re-used the old tubes with the new washers after making the nipples ends flat and smooth. Okay, plumbers scream, but 95% of leaks are at the connectors from bad nipples and overtightening. The copper in those tubes is good quality. The braided SS with vinyl inside I WOULD change often.

You would be better off buying a NEW valve if you can find the same configuration... Graingers has many, and look for one made in the USA. Here is one that costs LESS THAN the Chinese model!

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CASH-ACME-Water-Pressure-Reducing-Valve-2RMY6?Pid=search

and here is the spec sheet showing the expansion bypass:

http://www.cashacme.com/_images/pdf_downloads/products/pressure_regulators/eb_45/EB45_Spec.pdf

So who is going to man up and apologize to this poor guy?

Or buy his expansion tank for where it could be useful?
 
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Jadnashua

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If you look at post #30, I said if everything is static and the pressure rises, the PRV is bad. This is not bad advice.

A bypass, if it exists in the PRV, won't open until the house pressure exceeds the incoming pressure. This could be quite high. Plus, it may not work. An expansion tank is required when the system is closed, and will keep the internal pressure essentially constant. In most places, you have a PRV, you are supposed to have an expansion tank. It will also prevent the house pressure from rises, which was indicated was 130# at the street, which is TOO high, even with a bypass that MIGHT limit it to that value.
 

Jerome2877

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If anyone doubts the reliability of the thermal expansion bypass, then add a 75 psi or adjustable 8$ well-type pressure relief valve.

Are you saying to add this instead of an expantion tank? This would cause that relief valve to release on a regular basis (not designed for this) as the pressure to the house is too high and as Jim states would not allow the bypass to work. You would owe him for all the water that would waste! lol
 

jasonbaur

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I just want to say I appreciate everyone's advice information and suggestions. If anything it was my own doing not able to explain the situation correctly, but I am glad this happened its been fun and quite educational for me. I was able to speak with Wilkins and they relayed me to a reseller who sells the repair kit, they have high hopes for my particular situation which sounds like its simply changing out some O rings/seals. I also had a professional plumber come out in hopes maybe he would be able to repair it but he wouldn't only offered to replace it with a new one $300 labor included, I told him if the repair kit fails I will call him back. No worries concerning the expansion tank I am sure that will sell very easily on **** as I got it for a great price only $40 online.

Happy Turkey Day!

PS thanks for the information on the regulators ballvalve, those are a lot cheaper then the plumber offered me all were over $170 good find. Perhaps I will purchase one of those regulators and hire a plumber just to install it which I hope will be cheaper then $300 as the repair kit by itself I think will cost me $40 waiting for a call back from the company.

Hmm I just found these 2 threads and that's the exact model I have, doesn't look to hopeful on repairing it.

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?26360-Wilkins-600-pressure-reducer-bleed-up
https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?20714-Failed-Wilkins-Model-600-Pressure-Reducing-Valve
 
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Terry

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The reason most plumbers replace, is that to repair is a typical two visit job. One trip to identify the PRV, then back to the shop to find and order the parts, add about one hour here for all the time that takes, assuming that someone will mail the part, and you don't have to make a separate trip across town for it.
The the second trip, or is this really the third trip, where you actually get to make a repair. Of course, if the plumber had replaced the part on the first trip, then the one hour wasted looking and getting parts would never have happened, and the third trip to make the repair would never had been needed.
So yes, if the homeowner had identified the needed part, ordered and paid for it, then they could have made the repair, or at least had it ready for the plumber on his first trip.
This is the same reason that plumbers have a hard time not "losing money" on some toilet repairs for old Kohler one-piece toilets.
One trip out to identify
Second trip to gather or mail order parts from the factory,
Third trip out to make the repair,
And then the homeowner wonders how so much time and money has accumulated on the repair.

So if you wonder why I have sold hundreds and hundreds of the Toto one-piece toilets now, one flapper, one fill valve in the van, and I can fix any of them.
That and the local hardware store carries parts for Toto, but not Kohler. Ironic isn't it?
 
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