Washer Standpipe Drain

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Cwhyu2

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download.jpgOK the dishwasher discharge should go to your desposer or a branch tailpiece into your kitchen sink waste.With a high loop or air gap.

branch-tailpiece-for-dw.jpg
 
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SS

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The d/w isn't actually next to the sink. It's on the opposite wall.

I'm wondering if I replace the cabs at some point if I should move the d/w back next to the sink -- if it's a problem to hook into the 2" washer waste drain rather than the sink drain.
 
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Gary,

Looking around to understand the vent. Does this mean another pipe is needed that routes to the outdoors? I don't know how that can happen in this closet. The waste drain itself would not already be vented?

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Gary Swart

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A dishwasher must have either a high loop or an air gap. I don't envision how you can legally connect the DW when it is on the opposite wall. DW problem aside, getting the clothes washer connected may not be as big a problem as it appears. First, tear out some more wall and clean the mess up so you can see and access what you are working with. Working from the drain to the washer, your first consideration is a vent. The vent goes between the P trap and the point where the drain turns down. That's why a tee would be the proper fitting back there. The top end of the tee goes to the vent, the bottom to the main drain line, the side to the P trap. The vent does not have to be 2" but everything else does. If the main drain pipe is cast iron, you can use a banded coupler to transition to the tee. If everything is ABS or PVC, just use matching fittings. If the water heater is on the floor above, you're OK to run the T/P drain line into the top of the washer standpipe as would be an air gap connection. As far as material to patch, you're choice. If done right, there should never be a water problem, but if there is, whatever you use will have to be removed anyway.
 

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Thanks, Gary. I am not doing the work myself, so don't know much about this. I'm having the plumbing in that closet redone so things work better and it is to code, and have talked to a couple plumbers already.

How can I tell if this waste pipe is vented? I don't understand why that wouldn't have been done as part of the initial build if all drains must be vented.

I was unaware of a d/w drain problem (loop/gap) only the standpipe size problem. Here is a picture of the dishwasher drain connection. It is >20" from the floor, which I think I am reading acts as a high loop. No?

I don't know the local code on air gaps. No one has mentioned anything about the dishwasher other than not to run it at the same time as the washer, due to the standpipe size.

standpipe.jpg


dw%252520drain.jpg



Pipes going into floor:

trap.jpg
 
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Gary Swart

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Look, if you are having this professionally done, then just make sure the plumber is licensed and bonded. In other words, a real plumber. He know about vents, dishwasher hookups, local regulations, how to connect everything so it is legal and to code. Make sure he draws a permit so that the work will be inspected. I'd still go ahead and clean up the mess, just done cut the pipes. My guess is if there is nothing more than we have discussed, a plumber will have this done while you drink a cup of coffee. Well, if you don't gulp it. BTW, in the last photo you posted, I can clearly see that the questionable fitting is a elbow so you do have an S trap and no vent.
 

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I just need to understand things generally so we can communicate and I know generally what is required and that it's going to be taken care of. No one has mentioned that there's no vent before. I don't see how that's possible. Or that the d/w has to be next to the sink and be set up a certain way for backflow. I need to know that so that if I get new cabinets, I would have to move the darn thing at that time and not just replace the units as they are.

Yes, I'll have to make sure a permit is pulled so it gets inspected. Have been through too many things not being done correctly in this house. No wonder they don't like to take out permits! I kind of have to stay ahead of it a little so I know what's going on. Only one guy in for estimates was specific about what he planned to do. These are licensed plumbers.

I am relieved that the drain is 2 inches. That's what I was trying to figure out. Of course, if it backs up from a clog, it backs up. And overflows into the living room floor. That is the problem. I don't see how they can stop that. It does run through when it's clear.


just dont cut the pipes

You mean to tie into a vent or something? I should not allow this?
 
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Cwhyu2

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You need to vent that trap search for vent plumbing I went to 4 years of school to understand the way venting is supposed to work look up and a lot of other plumbing applications and 15 yrs in the field.That being said,go to the IPC code google it may give you some idea of what needs to be done.
 

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Thanks. I have been googling around for specifics. Was just consoling myself, maybe a mechanical vent is sufficient. Maybe that's what they were planning on doing. I don't know what else can be done.

I don't understand why this hasn't come up and been stated that it needs to be addressed.

It's been this way for a very long time. But I need the plumbing to Code, especially if it's being reworked now. I'm not aware of sewer gases in the house, in terms of health concerns. But otherwise, it will come back to bite me at resale if things aren't addressed.
 

Gary Swart

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I'm done! You just don't seem to understand that a professional plumber will KNOW what is needed and how to do it. He will not need nor will he want your advice. I meant don't YOU cut the pipes. You can help by just opening the wall and cleaning up the mess.
 

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You need to cool your jets and let a person find some peace of mind! It's extremely stressful to have the thing overflowing and wrecking the house. All I wanted to know was if there was hope that it might actually be a 2" drain, for some relief.

No one has mentioned busting the place up to install a required vent! Or that my dishwasher needs to be moved because it is illegal!

and btw, having homeowners speaking or inquiring about the work on their home is not advising. I'm sure you are totally un-involved in whatever goes on in your own house ; )
 

Cacher_Chick

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First, DO NOT hire the guy who drilled the hole in the pipe to run the snake through it. He is a hack, not a plumber.

Second, have a couple of licensed plumbers come in and estimate for the job. If the quote does not include running a new vent, I would not consider it.

Third, don't write off needing to cut the floor to replace some of the existing line. It may be the only way to do the job right.

And finally, there is no requirement for the dishwasher to be next to the sink, but it does make the plumbing easier. How the DW is plumbed now and how it should be plumbed is really beyond the scope of this forum thread, as the topic of this thread is regarding a washer standpipe.
 

SteveW

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If you are trying to understand the concept of venting of a DWV (drain, waste, vent) system, maybe Terry can post a drawing he has that explains it -

a picture is worth 1000 words.

dwv_b2.jpg
 
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SS

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Thanks, cacher & Steve : )

I always call a plumbing company not a handyman. However, the original hack from decades ago, who worked around the complex and set this up, turned out to be a handyman not a plumber. So the handyman lesson was learned long ago with a number of things he did around here. The guy who drilled the hole was from Roto Rooter. Another plumber who had been here clearing the drain said that was accepted practice and the way to do it. He'd have done the same thing; maybe he was from RR too. Every plumber that comes through to clear it, I ask about this setup because it just isn’t working for me. They all just look and moan. About what, other than a mash of pipes, I don't know. No solutions or alternatives were ever suggested. They all seemed to be, what else are you going to do.

I would love to put in a larger drain than the 2†if it would solve the clogs but the floor is not going anywhere now. If it does, I’ll definitely be looking into that.

I've looked at the venting diagrams and get the general idea. Just not what's going on with my own home and why it wouldn't have had one installed.
 

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So much conflicting information. The guy who was here today says 1-1/2” standpipe is typical. The others said it should be 2” and that’s current Code. He’s not aware of the new washers not being able to drain adequately with a 1-1/2”. Doesn’t think each fixture needs its own trap installed off the standpipe, as one plumber diagrammed he would do.

He thinks the wider area of the waste drain that we’re seeing at the surface is just a hub that chokes back down to a 1-1/2” waste but it’s hard to tell without opening the floor a bit. So dissappointing. He made a call to the boss who says they didn’t make the CI drains at 1-1/2” so it is probably 2”. He handles the more complicated jobs than his apprentice and will be coming out to take a look.

Btw, this area (in the NE) uses its own plumbing code. He says it’s stricter than the UPC, that the air gap on the counter is not required, and that my standpipe acts as a vent to supply the necessary air to keep the trap working well. Also that the drain was within 10' to the stack and main drain so didn't need one. Did he say the standpipe acts as an air gap too for the d/w? Personally, I don’t see why, as the washer water overflows back up the standpipe, that water can’t flow down that d/w drain into the fixture. Makes no sense to me. Unless there’s a shutter door. He also explained that as far as the d/w drain connecting directly into the standpipe, that it does that at the sink also. And was I having a problem with water backing up into the d/w? lol

He said the trap at the floor is not an S-trap, which is tighter. This one elbows out. That area always gets the evil stink eye. But maybe it’s the boiler plug not the trap configuration?

So, confusing it is! Plumbing does not seem to be black & white, but much of an applied science and art. I get the impression each plumber would do something different. Some would make more changes than others. Only one diagrammed his plan (which this one thought was unncessary). The others were vague. What to do.

Can anyone confirm that 1-1/2” CI drains were not used/available in the early 1970s and that this would likely be a 2” waste drain?

Thanks.
 
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Terry

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The cast iron pipe with hubs is 2"
I imagine that the pipe it about twice as old as the aprentice working for you.

2" drains and standpipes for washers have been code for about 50 years.
Again, about twice as old as the person working for you.

Some states don't require an air gap for the dishwasher. When they don't, they like to see the drainline from the dishwasher looped as high as you can below the countertop.

Where is the trap vented from? We can't see that in the picture.
A 2" trap arm needs to be vented within 60"
A 1.5" trap arm needs to be vented within 42"

A washer drain and standpipe is 2"
Some done 50 years ago were 1.5"
They sometimes overflowed. Typically, the washer hose is inserted into the standpipe. That isn't considered an air gap, but then an air gap has never been required for the clothes washer, only for a dishwasher.

One of the guys looking at the plumbing, is just making stuff up.

It's a little hard for us to see what is going on from the picture.
If you have a backing up problem, it would make sense to go to the 2" cast, and run a 2" trap and standpipe from there.
If you can't "see" a vent, it wouldn't hurt to use an AAV for one at that point.
However, if the pipe was real clean, it may work anyway.
 
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lol, frightening stuff. Yes, you're right, the pipe is about twice as old as he is, at 22. ok, so maybe this isn't the plumber for me. He is still in training. He said he does pricing and the easier stuff like the water heaters, valves, etc. His dad does the more complicated jobs. This is why I said no more kids to the last plumbing company when the bathroom was done. Requested a Master ... who didn't tighten the waste drain to the tub and I had a shower in the kitchen and a 4 foot hole in the ceiling. Maybe it's the sewer gases in here. That might explain my problem, too :D

So from what you are saying, it sounds like I've got the 2" cast iron drain going on due to the age of my home. So installing the 2" standpipe will make sense since it won't choke down and it will be up to code as far as that's concerned.

As for the vent, I thought his numbers were pretty out there, at 10 feet. The stack is about 8 feet from the washer drain. Don't know how close the main drain runs from the washer drain (supposedly serving as a vent?) but from what I gather from those who have been through, it's probably running down the center of the kitchen which is about 42" out from the washer drain.

I thought the standpipe-is-a-vent theory sounded hokey. And maybe he doesn't know the criteria for what makes an s-trap either, based on further up the conversation.

So this is what I'm up against. I called a plumbing company. I think I'll settle on one of the old timers who's been working in the trenches for at least a couple decades. But they usually send someone else out anyway. Hopefully with an experienced Master's plan in hand to execute. I dunno how that works.

I hope they put the AAV on. This guy looked at me like I had two heads and said they don't use them. And anyway, the standpipe is the vent, lol.

What do you think of this plan? A trap for each drain (washer, d/w, T/P) strung off the standpipe (might be drawn wrong shape than he had). What would be the advantage of this? I like that it looks like a smooth free run into the drain. T-d with an AAV. And maybe the debris from the d/w and washer would settle separately in each trap (which I would hope would have access at the bottom to clean them out).

vents.jpg


This guy wanted $1500 for a 50g electric water heater, lol. $3400 for the job.
 
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Cwhyu2

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Tell you what you fly me to where you are at pay for one night at a good motel and can have your problem solved in one day.And it would probly save you some money.
Just kidding, but you should do as my earlier post suggested.AAV will work need to get that old copper out rod out the 2" CI and build from there.
 
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SS

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lol, cw. I think you're right I could even save some money flying someone in. He wanted $650 to do 5' of backerboard at the bottom of the closet. I'm guessing that's running about $200/hr. He does drywall, tile, etc. on his jobs which is why I was hoping his company could take care of the whole closet. Was also going to jack the floor a bit to look at the size of the waste pipe. I can just see if I make sure whoever is going to rod the pipe or put an AAV on, lol. I hope cleaning the pipe would be SOP.

Anyone have thoughts on the multiple traps? The purpose behind it, any advantages? I don't think the others had any similar plan. I'm wondering if this might help with the clogs by providing more areas to trap the debris separately. And maybe slow the water down if both fixtures were running at the same time. Hopefully there would be a cleanout on each one so I could check it myself. Maybe the clogs have been in the trap rather than down the line, causing it to backflow out of the standpipe periodically. That darn boiler plug has definitely been a problem, collecting debris around its pin.
 

Cwhyu2

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lol, cw. I think you're right I could even save some money flying someone in. He wanted $650 to do 5' of backerboard at the bottom of the closet. I'm guessing that's running about $200/hr. He does drywall, tile, etc. on his jobs which is why I was hoping his company could take care of the whole closet. Was also going to jack the floor a bit to look at the size of the waste pipe. I can just see if I make sure whoever is going to rod the pipe or put an AAV on, lol. I hope cleaning the pipe would be SOP.

Anyone have thoughts on the multiple traps? The purpose behind it, any advantages? I don't think the others had any similar plan. I'm wondering if this might help with the clogs by providing more areas to trap the debris separately. And maybe slow the water down if both fixtures were running at the same time. Hopefully there would be a cleanout on each one so I could check it myself. Maybe the clogs have been in the trap rather than down the line, causing it to backflow out of the standpipe periodically. That darn boiler plug has definitely been a problem, collecting debris around its pin.
Yes that plug can be a cause of your problem,but you still need to repipe and rod out.
Oh BTW there is an entertainment clause.:D
 
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