Wanting to pump water.

[crazyfarmermm]

Hello guys, I am looking for a little advice or to find out if I am crazy. I am a farmer who is trying to clean my act up a little, begin rotational grazing, and limit animal access to stream water. This may take some time and will likely be a several step process. I currently have a nice freshwater spring that was formerly used to provide water to 2 houses and no longer in use. It currently has a 1,000 gallon water storage tank buried underground that gravity feeds from the spring. At this location I have easy access to electricity. My ideas are to use another water storage tank with a deep well pump and floats for protection. Am I crazy? Would I need a pressure tank? At peak I think I will pump 900 gallons per day. I am sure you may need more information. Please help me think this through, thank you.

 

[Reach4]

I think you are proposing to have the water from the pump wye off with one leg feeding the lower trough via a float-controlled valve and the other output leg feeding the higher trough with no valve. The upper trough will have a float switch that controls the relay at the pump house, and the relay controls the pump.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[crazyfarmermm]

I think you are proposing to have the water from the pump wye off with one leg feeding the lower trough via a float-controlled valve and the other output leg feeding the higher trough with no valve. The upper trough will have a float switch that controls the relay at the pump house, and the relay controls the pump.

I don't plan on using both tanks at the same time as I would like to rotationally graze the pasture fields, however I don't want to limit myself from being able to do so in the event a need were to arise. Would it be possible to pressurize the system?

 

[Reach4]

Yes, it is possible to pressurize the system, and that would require a pressure tank. In that case, each trough will have a valve to control the water. Each could be an unpowered float valve, or it could be an electric valve controlled by a float switch. Suppose you have a 4o/60 PSI pressure switch. At 40 PSI, you have...

The good news is that you would not have to run a control wire to the high trough.

 

[Boycedrilling]

After looking at you map, here's what I would recommend. Put a stock tank valve at each water tank. You can install as many stock watering tanks as you want. Install a pump with a cycle stop valve with a small pressure tank at the spring source. The pipeline will be pressurized. When any of the tank valves opens up, the pressure will drop and the pump will turn on. The cycle stop valve will cause the pump to run continuously as long as there is demand for more than 1 gallon per minute of water. The pump will not cycle on and off. When all tank valves are closed, the pipeline will pressure back up to the cutoff pressure of the pressure switch, and the pump will shut off until a valve opens again. There is no need to run wiring to each tank location.

 

[crazyfarmermm]

Yes, it is possible to pressurize the system, and that would require a pressure tank. In that case, each trough will have a valve to control the water. Each could be an unpowered float valve, or it could be an electric valve controlled by a float switch. Suppose you have a 4o/60 PSI pressure switch. At 40 PSI, you have...
View attachment 32099The good news is that you would not have to run a control wire to the high trough.

So would you suggest a higher PSI setting? Would this be impacted by the size of line I intend to run? Very useful information, thank you.

After looking at you map, here's what I would recommend. Put a stock tank valve at each water tank. You can install as many stock watering tanks as you want. Install a pump with a cycle stop valve with a small pressure tank at the spring source. The pipeline will be pressurized. When any of the tank valves opens up, the pressure will drop and the pump will turn on. The cycle stop valve will cause the pump to run continuously as long as there is demand for more than 1 gallon per minute of water. The pump will not cycle on and off. When all tank valves are closed, the pipeline will pressure back up to the cutoff pressure of the pressure switch, and the pump will shut off until a valve opens again. There is no need to run wiring to each tank location.

I looked at some information for the cycle stop valve and I can definately understand the purpose of it. So do I need to purchase a pump that can overcome the pressure head or just one that can charge the pressure tank? And by small pressure tank what size would you suggest?

 

[Reach4]

Put a stock tank valve at each water tank. You can install as many stock watering tanks as you want. Install a pump with a cycle stop valve with a small pressure tank at the spring source.

That would make it critical that the stock tank valve had a deadband rather than a modulating characteristic.

 

[Reach4]

So would you suggest a higher PSI setting? Would this be impacted by the size of line I intend to run? Very useful information, thank you.

If you bought a 40/60 pressure switch if you found you wanted more pressure, you could crank up the pressure switch. You normally want the pressure tank air precharge to be set 2 PSI less than the pump cut-on pressure.

You will probably want a 1/2 HP pump and select the GPM of the pump based on numbers. While your situation differs, the numbers are not so far off from those in this thread: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/question-on-sizing-pump.63644/#post-471939

If you use the CSV, you will probably want your tanks to have electric valves controlled by a float switch. And in fact, you could use electric valves at the troughs and a similar small 4 gallon pressure tank at the float switch at the pressure switch with no CSV. Since the float switches would be set up with a deadband of 15 gallons or more, the pump could be cut off very shortly after the trough valves have shut off.

If you were to add a spigot or two for misc use and you wanted a pressure tank with only a 1 gallon drawdown, you would need the CSV. http://cpkits.com/products/pk1a kits a bunch of stuff you would need.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Valveman will repond to this thread at some point. He owns the company that makes the cycle stop valve. Follow his advice.

Real world experience. You really don't want to be running control wires to each stock tank.

The size of water line you need to run is a function of the gpm's you want to pump and the length of the line. Bigger is usually better, within reason. I've never had somebody tell me "I wish we had of run a smaller pipe". Are you trenching or plowing the pipe in? You've basically got the choice of PVC or poly pipe in various pressure ratings. I personally prefer HDPE sdr11 pipe. I can trench it, plow it, or pull it in with my directional drill. I butt fuse it together. No insert fittings and hose clamps. It comes in rolls of 100, 300, 1000 and 3000 ft.

 

[crazyfarmermm]

Valveman will repond to this thread at some point. He owns the company that makes the cycle stop valve. Follow his advice.

Real world experience. You really don't want to be running control wires to each stock tank.

The size of water line you need to run is a function of the gpm's you want to pump and the length of the line. Bigger is usually better, within reason. I've never had somebody tell me "I wish we had of run a smaller pipe". Are you trenching or plowing the pipe in? You've basically got the choice of PVC or poly pipe in various pressure ratings. I personally prefer HDPE sdr11 pipe. I can trench it, plow it, or pull it in with my directional drill. I butt fuse it together. No insert fittings and hose clamps. It comes in rolls of 100, 300, 1000 and 3000 ft.

My original plan was to run a 1.25 inch 200 psi line which I was planning on trenching in. I am able to purchase it in 300 foot coils from flyingwplastics at $68.00 per 100 feet, I would honestly like to run a slightly lower psi due to cost, but I feel the added safety may be worth the cash. I feel that electric valves at each trough would be overly complicated for what I wish for the system to do. Would I need a deep well pump or would a surface mounted pump work in this situation?

 

[Valveman]

Since the storage tank is buried I assume you will have to lift water out with the pump. In that case a submersible would be best as it will not need to be or keep prime, and will give more water per horsepower as it is pushing water instead of sucking water as a jet pump would do. You can use float valves in the stock tanks. Just try to get non-modulating float valves so they are either fully open or fully closed. Modulating float valves can just trickle water in the tank as it slowly fills the last inch or so, and you don't want anything using less than 1 GPM for long periods of time. That would make the pump run much longer, use more electricity to fill the tank, and is not good for the pump.

The Pside-Kick kit using a CSV1A would be all you need to control the pump, submersible or jet. The CSV will keep the pump running steady as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. Without a CSV a 10 GPM pump would cycle on and off when only one 2-3 GPM float valve is open. And you need a 10 GPM pump in case 2 or 3 float valves are open at the same time. The CSV will just make the pump match the output of 1 or 3 float valves as needed.

 

[Reach4]

Would I need a deep well pump or would a surface mounted pump work in this situation?

A multi-stage centrifugal pump will be more efficient than a jet pump. Submersible well pumps are usually multi-stage. There are also booster pumps that are multi-stage centrifugal that have a pipe in and a pipe out.

Explain more what you are envisioning. Your 1000 gallon tank is below ground. You were thinking of adding another tank at the base. What would that for?

I think a regular stock tank valve is not pure on-off might only be passing 0.25 GPM as the tank gets nearly full. To use a CSV system, it would be better to use non-modulating (on-off) float switches such as described in post 8 of https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-best-control-well-pump-and-cistern.62760/ See the other posts on that thread too.

I think with a big pressure tank, common stock tank valves would be fine.

I am not a pro, and am not speaking from experience.

 

[Valveman]

A multi-stage centrifugal pump will be more efficient than a jet pump. Submersible well pumps are usually multi-stage. There are also booster pumps that are multi-stage centrifugal that have a pipe in and a pipe out.

The problem with multi-stage centrifugal pumps is that they use a jet pump motor and the thrust bearing will not handle the down thrust. For these I like the Pentair type pump as the floating stack does not put any load on the motor thrust bearing.

To use a CSV system, it would be better to use non-modulating (on-off) float switches such as described in post 8 of https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-best-control-well-pump-and-cistern.62760/ See the other posts on that thread too.

A non-modulating float valve is best with any type control system.

I think with a big pressure tank, common stock tank valves would be fine.

You would think that but it is not the case. The larger tank will better handle the .25 GPM flow for long periods. But when one or two floats are really open and using 2-3 or 4-6 GPM, a 10 GPM pump with a standard size tank will cycle a lot. If you can't use non-modulating float valves this is one of those cases where it would be best to use a standard size tank WITH a CSV. That way the larger tank handles the little .25 gpm flows and the CSV keeps the pump from cycling when the float valve(s) are using more than 1 GPM.