Verticle Sweating, Ridgid Copper

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Blindog

Tim Bailey
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Hi to all, I've started re plumbing my daughters water system between the water heater and about four branches using ridged copper grade M. I've been able to do a fair amount of the work on the bench by designing a "manifold" for lack of better word. Eventually I will have to do some vertical bottom up sweat joints in some tight places. There is not enough room to use a shark-bite fitting. Does anyone have advise on approaching this situation. I've been using 95/5 Wellington solder with Wellington flux and propane fuel. I wire brush in and outside diameters and coat both surfaces with flux. The original system was reduced to 1/2" as soon as it entered the house and they plumbed everything in 1/2" plus there are numerous leaking joints. My goal is to run 3/4" as far as I can without cutting walls open. Thanks.
 

Jadnashua

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If you've got the hang of soldering now, this may not apply...but, I find that using a tinning flux makes things much more reliable for people that don't solder pipe all that often. Because of the heat generated, you'll find that the last joint you make may fail unless you have the end open to the atmosphere (say, a valve open?). Otherwise, the expanding air can push a path through the molten solder, and leave a leak path before things can solidify. If the pipe can't be moved enough to spread the pipes apart, you'd need to use a repair coupling for at least one joint. This looks just like a 'normal' one, but doe not have a stop in the middle. You need to be careful to get it centered on the two pipe ends. A slight crimp with a pair of pliers can be used to keep it in place before you solder it if it tends to be loose.

Type M is the thinnest version typically used in a home. As a result, it tends to be less expensive than K or L. Make sure to ream the pipe end back round without a lip from the tubing cutter prior to assembling the joints...a step often ignored. IT can cause turbulence in the pipe and actually cause it to erode holes downstream of the joint down the road. That will often take years, but it's easy to avoid by doing it right the first time.
 

Blindog

Tim Bailey
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Thank you Jadnashua, I have been meticulously reaming the pipe as flow is a pet peeve of mine. I'll research the tinning flux and make sure not to allow the system to pressurize. I did not know about the repair sleeve but it now makes sense thanks to your detailed instructions.
 

SteveW

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You have received an excellent tutorial from jadnashua as you are aware.

I wish I had known about the issue of making sure the system you are soldering is open to the atmosphere a few years back. I couldn't understand why my joints were leaking, despite meticulous prep work and good soldering technique.

One other point -- are you experienced with sweat soldering? For example, do you know about putting the heat on the fitting, not the pipe? And know not to overheat the joint?
 

Blindog

Tim Bailey
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My method is to distribute the heat evenly. In other words if I had a tee or a valve I would concentrate the heat on the heavier pieces and try to bring the temps up together. Though I don't sweat copper every day I have plumbed three or four complete houses in the last twenty years and did a lot of repair work in between. I've been welding and fabricating since high school so I understand the basics. Thanks to this site I completed my manifolds today and even pressurized them to make sure my joints were good. Thanks again to Jadnashua. Here is a pic of what I did today.
manifold.JPG
 

Cacher_Chick

Test, Don't Guess!
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I prefer mapp gas to propane, as it burns hotter. The size and type of torch tip also has a big effect on how quickly the joint will draw in solder.
 

Blindog

Tim Bailey
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Good point, my torch is rather rudimentary, I could use an upgrade.. Maybe I'll do that before I start my finesse work.
 

Jadnashua

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I learned that trick about having a valve open from (I think) Terry. It helps being around for awhile...you pick up tips like that. I just try to catalog them, and pass them along to help others.
 

SteveW

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I learned that tip from Terry, too!
One of those things that, once you learn it, you kind of do the "dope slap" of your forehead and wonder why you didn't think of it yourself.

Great job of gathering those tips in one place and sharing them with others.
 

Dj2

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Other points that you can never overlook:

1. The joint must be 100% dry.
2. Wiping the soldered joint with a rag is a good practice.
3. Keeping a bottle of water or a small extinguisher handy in case of fire.
4. Using a heat shield when soldering around flammable materials.
5. I keep a tiny mirror, for tight spaces where I can't see behind the joint.
6. If you mess it up on first try, use brand new fittings on second try.
 

SteveW

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Just for fun, I have compiled the tips/tricks submitted in this thread, which I think could be a useful sticky if Terry wants to use it that way. I'll start a new thread, but in the meanwhile here they are:

1. The joint must be 100% dry.
2. Wiping the soldered joint with a rag is a good practice.
3. Keeping a bottle of water or a small extinguisher handy in case of fire.
4. Using a heat shield when soldering around flammable materials.
5. Use a small mirror, for tight spaces where you can't see behind the joint.
6. If you mess it up on first try, use brand new fittings on second try.
7. Use tinning flux for best results.
8. Make sure that the system being soldered is open to the atmosphere, to prevent heated air in the pipes from pushing out a newly-soldered joint and creating a leak.
9. Heat the joint, not the pipe.
10. Heat the joint for a few seconds, and then touch the solder to the side of the joint opposite from the torch to see if it melts. If not, heat for another few seconds and retry. When the temperature is right, the solder will melt and flow into the joint. Keep feeding in solder until the entire joint is filled.
11. Ream the pipe to prevent future turbulence downstream in the pipe.
12. If you don't have much room to spread two pipe ends apart, you can use a "slip coupling," which resembles a regular coupling fitting but without the ridge in the middle. This allows it to be moved freely along one of the pipes and then centered between the two pipe ends. If it slips too much and won't stay in place while being soldered, you can carefully crimp it with pliers to keep it in place.
13. MAP-Pro torches burn hotter than propane torches and are suitable for larger joints.
 
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