Valves Valves and more Valves

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by gsici, Feb 18, 2009.

  1. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    WOW. I have walls down in the basement for a new shower and was looking for a new shower system and realized that this has come a long way. I always knew of Diverter and that's all I thought there was, BUT diverter, transfer, multi port, thermostatic, mixing, pressure balanced, volume control, etc......Where to start:confused:.

    All I am looking for is a shower to control an overhead showerhead and a separate handheld on a shower-arm which will be on another wall. The Big Box stores do not seem to have this.

    What should I be looking for.....This is a basement project(budget is important).

    Thx
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,811
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    valves

    A three port diverter is used for that purpose. You would want one from the same company that made your valve in order to match up the handles. If you get more ports than that, because it is all your valve manufacturer makes, DO NOT plug them. Connect them to one of the two devices using tees.
  3. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    THX HJ

    I have no other valves. I have nothing at this stage. Are you saying I need to buy two components. A 3 port diverter and secondly a valve? If so what type of valve?
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    The big box stores sell pre-packaged 'systems'. This consists of a rough-in valve and trim pieces and sometimes a tub spout and showerhead...the same rough-in valve can usually be used on numerous trims from the same company.

    If you shop on-line or at a plumbing supply store, you can usually buy these pieces separately (but must still stay within the same family and brand to have compatibility). SO, you need a rough-in valve for your shower. Today's code means it must have two things: anti-scald technology and a max temperature adjustment. There are a couple of ways to accomplish that, primarily pressure balanced or thermostatic. On pressure balanced, most come with no volume control...it is either full on or full off. Most thermostatic valves have separate volume and temperature settings. In your case, you will also need a divertor valve to route the water where you wish it.

    So, you need to decide what you prefer, the trim pieces, the type of valve, then make your choice.
  5. Howard Emerson

    Howard Emerson I teach guitar:You call that a job?

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huntington Station, NY
    The simplest and least expensive way to do this is with a Moentrol, the shower head of your choice, and a simple shower arm-mounted diverter control before the shower head.

    It will work just fine.

    A little more money will get you what I have, and like very, very much: A Hansgrohe Pro/thermobalance II valve and the Talis Trim kit. I also used a Grohe Wall union (where the bottom of the valve diverter sends water to the hand held shower), the Raindance shower head and a 24" Grohe shower bar, onto which the hand held is, um......held, at whatever height you prefer.

    The Hansgrohe unit has two knobs: One adjusts the temperature and the other has a handle that when turned clockwise sends the water to the shower head, and the other way it is sent to the hand held.

    Expect to spend about four hundred, give or take, on just the valve, trim kit and and wall union.

    I paid almost 1k for everything needed, and I'm very pleased with it. Here are links to the main parts.

    http://www.hansgrohe-usa.com/us_en/26237_31353733315F32375F3530343639.htm

    http://www.hansgrohe-usa.com/us_en/26240_31353734315F32375F3530353232.htm

    Regards,
    Howard
  6. Howard Emerson

    Howard Emerson I teach guitar:You call that a job?

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huntington Station, NY
    Here's a picture of the installed Hansgrohe unit, etc.

    Thought this might answer more questions with less talk............

    HE

    Attached Files:

  7. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    Thank You. Pictures do speak volume. What is a STOP on a pressure balanced valve?
  8. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    Most of the big box store carry a valve with a built in diverter on the tub spout. I did see one however on the valve and I was thinking that I could use one for the showerhead and the other for the handheld shower since I do noy have a tub.

    Is this a fair assumption??? If so can I put the shower head on the bottom one that typically goes to the tub spout since this is where the water goes by default when first turned on and then I can divert to the handheld.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    The 'stop' is an adjustment that 'stops' you from turning the handle beyond a certain point...in this case it limits how hot it can go to help prevent scalding someone accidentially. My preference is to use a thermostatically controlled valve since you can set it once, summer or winter, beginning of the water heater or end, and if there's hot water, the temp will be the same.
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    If there's a divertor in the valve assembly, normally, yes, you could run one output to one head, and the other to the other. BUT, not necessarily. Got a specific one in mind? You can probably find the installation instructions on the web...you need to read those.
  11. Howard Emerson

    Howard Emerson I teach guitar:You call that a job?

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huntington Station, NY
    The 'stop' that Jad, and the link refers to, is a safety device that will not allow the water temperature to go above a certain point.

    To get the water hotter the user physically has to push in on the knob, and then they'll be able to go past that temperature high-point.

    There are also 'stops' built into shut-off valves for the hot & cold. They are accessible once you take of the escutcheon plate.

    The rough-in valve is available with and without those stops. They're only needed for convenience. If you have shut-offs on the water lines running to the bathroom, you don't need them.

    HE
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,811
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    diverter

    You CANNOT use the tub spout opening for ANYTHING else, because a hand held or any other device would act as the diverter and always send water to the shower head, regardless of the setting of the diverter, OR whether the hand held was being used or not. You need a transfer valve that sends the water ONLY to the device you wish to use.
  13. Howard Emerson

    Howard Emerson I teach guitar:You call that a job?

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huntington Station, NY
    Here's the simplest way to do this:

    Get an Alsons #4922 diverter. Can't get the link to work, sorry.

    This diverter screws onto your shower arm with Teflon paste or tape.

    The shower head goes on the male opposite the female, and the hose for a hand held goes on the other male.

    HE
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  14. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    Thx all.

    I guess using the tub spout is a no-no.

    Howard the Alsons product is external and I plan on having a showerhead from the ceiling and the slidearm with handhels will be on another wall three feet away and I do not want to have long cables on the outside.

    I think volume controls may be a way to go and I can build a "T" out of the output on the valve and have a seperate volume control for both.

    My issue is the valve since I want water (at the right temperature at these volume control valves at all times. Is this possible without going SPA High end??
  15. Howard Emerson

    Howard Emerson I teach guitar:You call that a job?

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huntington Station, NY
    If you want both to be able to work at the same time, with different flow rates, but both at the same temperature, I can't answer your question absolutely.

    If I had to guess, though, I'd say you're looking for a thermostatic-only control that would let water pass through to two seperate volume controls, each one controlling water flow to each of the items you're wanting: Shower head and hand held.

    I'm sure Hansgrohe or Grohe makes these items.

    Best of luck and post pictures when you're done!

    HE
  16. gsici

    gsici New Member

    Messages:
    33
    Howard

    I think you are bang on. Just got back from Homers and spent some time with someone that actually had some idea (miracles never cease) and after spending time through several vendor catalogs. I need a temperature valve and two separate volume valves. The two separate volume valves are relatively inexpensive however the temperature valve is crazy expensive. I need to go to plan B since this is a basement afterall.:(

    Thx for all your help:D
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