Using a Thermal Break for a basement heated floor - Recommendations from NuHeat

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Jadnashua

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Any heating cable MIGHT be able to provide primary heating. Or, it might not. There is a max amount of heat that can be generated from any of them ,and it's in the order of 10-12W/sqft. Depending on where you live, that might be enough, or it might not. The tile floor warming systems might provide all of the heat you need, or they may not. Hydronic heating can provide lots more heat per square foot, but it may not be needed, either. An interior room, where the others around it are heated 'normally' and the area below is as well, does not need much heat to stay warm. If you want to call that primary heat, fine. But, take the situation where the room is an add-on bump-out, on a slab, and it would likely need lots more heat to be comfortable, and an electric floor warming system probably wouldn't handle it in the cold northern parts of the USA. So, like I said...do your heat load analysis, then pick what is needed. A warm floor may not be enough to keep the room warm. As such, none of the manufacturers say that their systems can provide all the heat you need in a space - they are designed to warm the floor, and that may be enough. You, as the customer, need to analyze the situation to understand if it COULD be your primary, or only heat there.

If you can't see that logic, I feel sorry for you.

If you read what I said, I said it depends.

And, FWIW, you could use Ditra Heat in a shower, but you'd need to cover it with Kerdi, and therefore, maybe not the best one for your application. Nothing's perfect in all situations. Ditra Heat is designed for floors of a room and the only way to make the assembly waterproof is to cover it with one, it's not the best for in a shower.
 

Vegas_sparky

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Electric heat in any form is expensive to operate. As Jim stated, depending on specific conditions, these systems can be used as primary heat sources, as long as their output is greater than the thermal loss of the heated area. If you're well insulated, it may suffice.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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We are discussing NuHeat heating systems here. Not trying to sell Ditra Heat. See the title.

I recommend NuHeat wire systems to my clients. They are the leader in this industry. Members of the NKBA. Love the fastening system. Can be used as a primary heat sours. Cane be used in a shower.

Thermostats are sexy - not ugly. And installer friendly.
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Easy Mat - Thermal Break Recommendation from Nu Heat : PHOTOS

Photos of EASY HEAT

This is the stuff I purchased for product testing....

Comes with a little bottle of primer and cost me roughly $85.00 with tax. The primer should look like this.

Video Installation


Not a bad video but pretty poor in Custom's part to showcase an installation that fills the expansion area of the plywood sub floor. There is a reason the plywood is not singing tight too the walls and each other. The framer did his job right - but this video does show case the general lack of knowledge in this industry. The video also hits home the fact that most skilled trades are older - and weaker. So hammering home the light weight option is key.

Pretty kick ass warranty! 25 years..... I wonder how that factors in with a heating system. I would bet that the warranty is for standard installs only.....
 
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Jadnashua

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Jim we are discussing NuHeat heating systems here.
I recommend NuHeat wire systems to my clients. They are the leader in this industry. Members of the NKBA. Love the fastening system. Can be used as a primary heat sours. Cane be used in a shower.

Thermostats are sexy - not ugly. And installer friendly.

And, if you'll read their instructions, they say they provide up to 12W/sqft, which is what I've been saying. That may or may not be enough to heat the room, but will warm the floor. Ditra Heat provides up to 12.7W/sqft...for all practical purposes, nearly ALL of them provide that same range of heat. They are all listed as floor warming systems, not room heating systems for a reason...it will ALWAYS work as floor heating, but depending on your heat loads might work as area heating. And, there are limits on how close you can run the cables (the mats are already configured, and can't be changed) for them to work properly and not fail prematurely so you cannot increase it for several reasons (one of which is the max floor temperature for safety). IOW, at least with the electric floor warming systems out there today, you cannot increase their heat output reliably.

As to the flexibility and practicality, those are personal perceptions, but from a performance perspective, at least regarding heating, they are all pretty much the same.

That someone has a preference, fine, but to indicate one is vastly superior in heating performance...BS - watts are watts, and they're all pretty much the same.

If you are going to incorporate an uncoupling membrane into your install, at this moment, there is only one that is designed to do that IN the mat, and saves a couple of steps, and since time is money...has some advantages. If it doesn't fit your needs, nobody's twisting your arm, and there are choices in the industry.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I saw the thermostat that they reccomend with Dirta Heat - I wouldn't use it - use a Honeywell TH115-AF-GA for radiant heat.


Thanks for the heads up Doug. I saw it as well last month. Looks butt ugly. I wonder if you void your warranty if you switch out thermostats? My money is you do. Complete system and all.
 

DougB

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I wonder if you void your warranty if you switch out thermostats? My money is you do. Complete system and all.

My thought is once the electrons pass through that relay in the 'Ditra Thermostat' they are converted into special 'Ditra Electrons' (this is an entire new branch of Electro Chromodynamics) . Use of anything but Dirta Electrons voids the warranty on everything Schluter in or near the bathroom.

Seriously, there is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 - it states that replacing a part with that of a different mfgr, does not void the vehicle warranty:

Vehicle manufacturers are not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket parts are on the vehicle. To better understand this problem it is best to know the differences between the two types of new car warranties and the two types of emission warranties.

When a vehicle is purchased new and the owner is protected against the faults that may occur by an expressed warranty - an offer by the manufacturer to assume the responsibility for problems with predetermined parts during a stated period of time. Beyond the expressed warranty, the vehicle manufacturer is often held responsible for further implied warranties. These state that a manufactured product should meet certain standards. However, in both cases, the mere presence of aftermarket parts doesn't void the warranty.
 
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Jadnashua

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NuHeat has, I think, four different thermostats for their floor warming systems, but here are the two most similar - the NuHeat one can control either air or floor, and displays the one selected; the Schluter one is similar, but shows the settings for both and offers a day/night function that can automatically switch back to day after a programmed time. IF you want more control, they have a daily control version, as does NuHeat. As tu butt-ugly, I'll let you decide. I didn't try to get the image sizes the same, sorry. You do have more choices with NuHeat, and their WiFi one looks neat, but at 3x or more the price, you decide if it really is important.
 

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Vegas_sparky

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That SS stat is butt ugly. I'm using Aube controllers, which are the same as the HWs. I don't like integral GFI protection, and install my own(which will protect OH shower lighting also). If the lights don't work, I know something's wrong, right away. Also easier to TS if its a bad stat, bad GFI, or bad heating cable.
 
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DougB

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That SS stat is butt ugly. I'm using Aube controllers, which are the same as the HWs. I don't like integral GFI protection, and install my own(which will protect OH shower lighting also). If the lights don't work, I know something's wrong, right away. Also easier to TS if its a bad stat, bad GFI, or bad heating cable.

I have three seperate heated floors (foyer, and 2 bathrooms). I put them all on one breaker. I found the Honeywells (Aube) to be reliable, and they are easy to program cause they have lots of function keys - rather than just one or two for everything. The newest one even changes for Day Light Savings Time (where DO they save the photons?). What's also nice is that there is this horizontal bar on the front - push it, and it turns on the back light - and you can read the TOD. My wife wanted a clock in the bathroom, until I showed her this feature.

So you use a local GFI for the lights and heat? I didn't think you could put it on the 20 amp bathroom circuit. Or is it on the lighting circuit?
 

Vegas_sparky

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So you use a local GFI for the lights and heat? I didn't think you could put it on the 20 amp bathroom circuit. Or is it on the lighting circuit?

In each bathroom I have an existing 15A shared general lighting circuit, (2) dedicated 20 A bathroom small appliance circuits(1 on each side of sink/mirror, and additional countertop), and a 20A dedicated circuit for the "other stuff"(floor heat/supplemental lighting).

For the master bath I roughed my "other" circuit into the space under my shower bench. It feeds a faceless which is located behind the door, which is typically open. Also under the bench I tapped an existing heat duct, and installed a 4" starting collar which could supply to the space under the bench. All my shower LED make up/controllers are also under that bench. I have a 4x10" decorative supply grill mounted vertically behind the door, at elevation under benchtop, next to the faceless. It serves as an access to all the stuff I put under the bench. It also puts a little heat into the bench from the central, when its running. The Aube controller is mounted directly above that access/grill. There is another (primary) supply grill for central heat on opposite side of room.

All that was done on purpose because of the versatility of the floor heat controller, and god forbid it gets damp under the bench, I can actively ventilate it. The access provides an easy place for inspection.

With this setup floor temp can be controlled by a programmed schedule, and the floor temp sensor. That's simple. If I want to control floor heat from ambient air temp, the supply grill comes into play. Access grill can be closed off so central heat from access has no influence(strictly ambient temp). If grill is open/and door is open(typically unoccupied), stat will see higher than room temp from access grill while heat is actually on, and cycle floor heat off. When the room is occupied for showering (door closed),open access grill will have lesser influence on stat, and floor heat will cycle off later. Stat also has a binary input so I can override floor heat with a WiFi network controller under the bench. That WiFi controller also has an AI so I can use a 10K space temp sensor to monitor room temp remotely.

Sounds like a lot but it isn't that much, and allows me to maximize the efficiency of the floor heating system. Along with nothing but LED/CFL lighting, and gas heat/water, I can keep this 4K sq/ft homes utilites(elec/gas) to <$100/month without any change in my familys behaviour. I can't help it. That's what I do for a living. LOL
 
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Vegas_sparky

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Back to basement slab thermal breaks, radiant heat, and tile.

I'd go for the EasyMat, but I want to keep this, and the next bathroom project as CBP free as possible.

What other materials are available that can offer some insulation?
 

ShowerDude

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image.jpg
Back to basement slab thermal breaks, radiant heat, and tile.

I'd go for the EasyMat, but I want to keep this, and the next bathroom project as CBP free as possible.

What other materials are available that can offer some insulation?

If your slab is sound and accepting of water, ( unsealed ) ....1 option could be...


Slab on grade
Thinset
Wedi board
Thinset
Laticrete thin heating mat
Thinset
Tile
Grout

Be warm and dont over work your heating mat!!!

Just an option worth looking at and you can use laticrete mortars grouts
 
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Vegas_sparky

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Slab is unsealed, but has a few spots of carpet pad adhesive I'll need to grind off. I don't know why anyone would want carpet under/around a toilet and shower.

Already have a floor heat system in a box ready to go. Loose wire, as the shape of the room is asymmetrical. Will be butting up to short pile carpet so thickness is a concern, but have a little room to play.

I have to look for 1/4" Wedi locally.
 

MikeQ

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Electric heat in any form is expensive to operate.

I recently installed 350 watts of floor heat in a 10x5 foot bathroom/shower floor. The 5' wall is exposed to a northern climate. Even on the coldest day the heat needs to be modulated or it will get too warm in there, even if the rest of the house is below 60F. But I installed a radiant heat barrier under the plywood sub-floor and above the fiber insulation. And it will take a long time to heat up from full cold. But the advantage of floor heat is the room feels warm even when the ambient room temperature is quite low.

The relative expense of electricity depends upon where you live. Geographically speaking, most areas of the country are not served by natural gas. And with propane currently selling around $3.50/gallon in many areas, electricity is the cheaper option. One gallon of propane contains 27kW and the useable amount of energy is less depending upon the efficiency of the appliance it is burned in. On the other hand, electricity is generally assumed to be almost 100% efficient, you get what you pay for.

I pay $0.085-.$0105/kW. Residential delivery of propane often has delivery or fuel surcharges added on which can be quite significant for small deliveries.

Electricity is considerably less expensive.
 
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