Using a 1" reduction for 1,25 inch pump water outlet?

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Sprinkler

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Actually, I should have said: 1 1/4" pump outlet to 3/4" reduction because the *interior diameter of the underground pipe is 3/4". Would that still be ok? I mean the pump at a depth of 50m and a 1 1/4" pipe to the surface and then the reduction to 3/4" pipe at the top of the well - for the underground run to the house. Sounds acceptable? Thanks
 

Sprinkler

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That is true about a pumptec not working when you are froze up.

Why have someone buy a CSV & a Cycle Sensor and hook all that stuff up, if the person knows how to do it himself, thats good but most people probably wont. Then they pay someone to hook it up for them. A Pumptec is going to be the cheaper route if the person has a Franklin Pump Motor, with just a few wire changes on hook up that he can do himself easily. I am sure the person has a space heater already (which I buy a new one after 3yrs, 20$ plus tax at Wal-Mart to make sure you dont freeze up is well worth it, especially when I have softener to keep from freezing as well. (I dont believe in heat tapes).
 

Sprinkler

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Just looking for confirmation that the reduction from 1 1/4" pipe to 3/4" is ok?
Originally I mentioned 1", but that's the exterior diameter of the pipe.
 

Valveman

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That is true about a pumptec not working when you are froze up.

Why have someone buy a CSV & a Cycle Sensor and hook all that stuff up, if the person knows how to do it himself, thats good but most people probably wont. Then they pay someone to hook it up for them. A Pumptec is going to be the cheaper route if the person has a Franklin Pump Motor, with just a few wire changes on hook up that he can do himself easily. I am sure the person has a space heater already (which I buy a new one after 3yrs, 20$ plus tax at Wal-Mart to make sure you dont freeze up is well worth it, especially when I have softener to keep from freezing as well. (I dont believe in heat tapes).

When the power goes off the space heater goes off, and the pipes freeze up. When the power comes back on the pipe is frozen and the pump deadheads until it melts down. So having a Cycle Senor would shut the pump off before the pipe melted and dropped the pump in the well. And the reason this DIY web page is so busy is because a lot of pump guys don't install a CSV and Cycle Sensor to start with like they should. Then the homeowner has to come here to figure out what happened and how to keep it from happening again, which is when they discover the CSV and/or the Cycle Sensor would have kept the problem from happening in the first place.
 

Valveman

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Really you are going to blame the problem on the well system, instead of the power company, that is some funny stuff right there but if they do have a problem with power going off, which they usually know this, a different system can be used and it dont have to be a CSV system.

A heated well house is great until the power goes off. This is something I hear from many people every winter. It doesn't matter who is to blame. They are still out of water and out the expense to get it fixed. If you don't plan for the worst case scenario, then that is exactly what will happen. Murphy's law will make sure of it.

And no you never HAVE to use a Cycle Stop Valve or a Cycle Sensor. But they can be the most important things to help make a well system able to handle any scenario you throw at it. Without a CSV, people with irrigation, especially when using just garden hoses, or any type of long term water use, have to plan water use carefully. You must use enough water to keep the pump from cycling itself to death, which you can't put enough pressure tanks on to do.

Sometimes after coming home from a long day on the pump or drilling rig, my wife would be in the yard with one garden hose running. Usually with some unusual sprinkler she found that sprayed water in patterns and "looked so pretty". There is no nice way to tell your wife she is doing something wrong. I would say, "dear, that pump needs to run 4 garden hoses at a time". I only said that because I had been fixing pumps all day that had cycled to death running one garden hose, when they needed to run 4 hoses to not cycle. But also because I didn't want to be fixing my own well again tonight before I could even take a shower. She, and therefore myself as well, have never been so happy since installing the first CSV, as I have never again had to tell her how she could or could not use the water around the house.

On top of that the CSV is the only thing I have installed on water systems that gets me so many compliments. Before CSV's is was always, "yeah the water is back on, thank you very much". After CSV's is has always been, "wow, the pressure has never been this good before".

I guess an example would be that a hunter never really needs a rifle either, especially if they don't know how to use one. But when they learn how to use them they can be a much better tool than a bow and arrow.
 

Sprinkler

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You really dont have a choice, if that 3/4 line you are talking about is your underground water feeder line to your house. Are you going to replace it, probably not.
I might replace the 3/4" underground pipe, but not for the moment. I will be making the reduction just next to the well, so at least the pipe replacing and digging wouldn't mean having to open the well again. In any case, can I take it that the pump will work ok with the 3/4" reduction? Thanks
 

Valveman

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I might replace the 3/4" underground pipe, but not for the moment. I will be making the reduction just next to the well, so at least the pipe replacing and digging wouldn't mean having to open the well again. In any case, can I take it that the pump will work ok with the 3/4" reduction? Thanks

The only problem with the 3/4 pipe is that it will reduce the amount of flow somewhat.
 

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I could put one tank on that system that could run one hose at time and this tank was used all the time back in day called (standard tanks) known for their huge drawdowns but you had to maintain them with air, depending on the size of tank the longer you can go before you have to maintain it with air. This is why pressure tanks made it so big because they were labeling them as maintenance free tanks. We have a 320gallon or 360gallon standard tank (from the late 50's) that we maintain every 3yrs or more and I believe my uncle said it gives you 25% to 30% drawdown of the tank. At my continuing education class they recommended that you show the customer how to maintain their pressure tank every 6 months.

Oh you can use a large enough pressure tank to be able to run one hose at a time. But that is a huge tank that is expensive, takes up a lot of room, and also uses a lot of heat to keep from freezing. And just forget to maintain it and let the tank waterlog one time, and the pump will rapid cycle itself to death in short order.

I hear from people all the time that think they have a large enough tank that cycling isn't a problem. They will say, "I only hear my pump click on maybe every 5 or 10 minutes". When you do the math for them using the 1440 minutes that are in a day, that can still add up to 150 to 300 cycles per day. Which explains why the pump doesn't last very long, and also why check valves, pressure switches, bladders in the tank are always giving them problems. Again you can always make do with a bow and arrow, but a rifle makes life much easier.
 

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Really because I tons of pumps that are over 30yrs old that use big pressure tanks and never have to worry about cycling your pump to death, your a good salesman but you cant bullshit me with your cycling to death opinion.

It is not an opinion, it is fact. Not everybody uses huge pressure tanks and use so little water anyway that cycling is not as issue. Why else would motor companies list the max number of cycles if cycling didn't destroy pumps? They want you to use a "properly sized" tank that will only give one minute of run time, because then they can calculate that pumps will last an average of 7 years. Professionally installed pumps usually last longer because the installer knows these things and uses larger than "properly sized" tanks. But for every pump you have that lasted 30 years, there is another out there that only lasted a couple of months. And besides, they don't make pumps like they did 30 years ago. So it is even more important to limit the cycling on the ones you are installing today. Pump manufacturers know cycling destroys about 90% of all pumps. But they really don't like giving out that information because these days there is a good way to eliminate cycling and make pumps last much longer than they like. :)
 

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Letscharts post: 458007 said:
GPM flow charts, for what you are looking at when under pressure. Find your pipe on the charts and measure how long your feeder line is.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/70818cc3-c558-465c-af39-40e2a89d6b60
Oh... Not sure I follow the chart. Basically, there will be about 48m of 1 1/4" (in the well) and then about 60m of 3/4" pipe to the house. I was a bit worried that the smaller 3/4" pipe might put more stress on the pump, but if the only problem would be a small reduction in total flow, no problem for me. The last (small) pump filled the attic tank in about 15 - 20 mins, I imagine this new pump will fill it much faster. The pipe in the well will be for drinking water - quite thick walled and strong compared to the normal black plastic pipe for watering fields, etc. May also help to hold up the pump? I mean in the event of last resort?
 
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Valveman

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Franklin Pump Company put a test on your theory on a 2wire pump, by turning it off and on repeatedly and it lasted a total of 4million starts. I think if you have a 3-wire with a control box, It could get even more starts because it's the starting mechanism on the 2-wire pump that goes out, it is built into the pump down the well. The 3-wire has it in the control box and it can be replaced with a new one (Starting Capacitor).

If all Franklin motors would last 4 million starts they would change it up quickly, as they can't survive as a company if their motors lasted that long. I have been to classes by many different pump/motor manufactures. They all claim their "tri-seal", "graphite bearings", or "Delrin Impellers" are
superior to what the other manufacturers have. I have been doing this long enough to have had the opportunity to talk to many "ex-employees" of several of those companies. They will tell you it is a high level company secret, but all pumps are made with an early fail date built in, as planned obsolescence is a main factor in any manufacturing. These companies will tell you their pump/motor is so much better than the other guys, but in reality they know exactly how many cycles it will survive and they know exactly how long the average pump will last. They just don't want you to know they really build them to fail in a predetermined amount of time, which means a finite number of cycles is built in.

From my own experience I use to send about 2,000 pumps and motors a year to the scrape yard. Making note of the date codes I could set my watch on the fact that the average life of all pumps is almost exactly 7 years.
 

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All you need to look at is the 60m of 3/4inch pipe and what pressure your system will work at because you will have very little if any friction loss in the 1 1/4 pipe in the well.
To be honest not sure exactly how to read the chart. In any case, I'm hoping to drop the pump down in the next day or 2. I'll let you know the results. By the way would you say it's ok to drop the (16 kilo) pump by holding onto the 1 1/4" pipe as it's dropping? It's very robust looking pipe.... And the stainless cable is hard on the hands.
 

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"That's funny because the pump companies claim they last 8 to 10yrs, we have found 15 to 20 to be the more common years."

So if you get 15 to 20 years knowing all the thing you know about how to install them correctly, you can imagine that the overall average is probably only about half that long. Different areas also cause pumps to last different lengths of time. Temperature of the water, abrasives, and how the water is being used also plays into how long a pump will last. We do a lot of our testing in the Midland Texas area, because they have much worse conditions and pumps usually only last about 3 years down there.
 

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sprinklarrived t: 458026 said:
To be honest not sure exactly how to read the chart. In any case, I'm hoping to drop the pump down in the next day or 2. I'll let you know the results. By the way would you say it's ok to drop the (16 kilo) pump by holding onto the 1 1/4" pipe as it's dropping? It's very robust looking pipe.... And the stainless cable is hard on the hands.
Well, the 1 1/4" pipe arrived. I was a bit disappointed to see it was a bit marked in some places, probably from getting dragged along the ground...This pipe is for drinking water. Do you think there would be any point in using something like sandpaper to smooth the roughened places...kind of remove the "rough edges"? I think the pipe walls are 5mm thick, so not a problem for leaking ....just the tiny jagged bits of pipe are bothering me....
 
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I have only done 30 or 40 pumps, all on Poly, but the many that I still have access to are going 18 to 30 years on standard and even a mix of pressure tanks. In my own well, its a basic Graingers [Myers, likely] and 24 years old now. Supplies one small house on a 30 gallon pre charge tank, and another system that fills a tank, maybe 200 gallons at a time. I do change out control boxes, or try, every ten years, and keep them there as backup. Capacitors get tired, and I only uses CSCR boxes. [I think Franklin says change the caps every 7 years] That pump I have set at 45-80 psi and that keeps it running when filling the tank and likely under any use, so my cycling is nil without the extra run time of the CSV. I would use the CSV in a small cabin or house where I didnt want to fool with or have room for a tank. With that big bandwidth of pressure, I have used a regulator at some houses and set it at 50.

I don't buy the unpleasant pressure swings in a shower with a tank system, even with a big differential. Most shower heads now regulate the flow to a certain GPM or at least as long as the washer lasts - and if not, BFD girls! Be glad you got water, and even hot!

Only pump that died early was a Flowtech [Floptech] that got into a muddy well. Although the Franklin motor on it is still good and a replacement motor costs more than the whole pump. Go figure. I'll buy them for the motor and toss the pump head or put it in a cistern.
 

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Well, the 1 1/4" pipe arrived. I was a bit disappointed to see it was a bit marked in some places, probably from getting dragged along the ground...This pipe is for drinking water. Do you think there would be any point in using something like sandpaper to smooth the roughened places...kind of remove the "rough edges"? I think the pipe walls are 5mm thick, so not a problem for leaking ....just the tiny jagged bits of pipe are bothering me....
 

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I have only done 30 or 40 pumps, all on Poly, but the many that I still have access to are going 18 to 30 years on standard and even a mix of pressure tanks. In my own well, its a basic Graingers [Myers, likely] and 24 years old now. Supplies one small house on a 30 gallon pre charge tank, and another system that fills a tank, maybe 200 gallons at a time. I do change out control boxes, or try, every ten years, and keep them there as backup. Capacitors get tired, and I only uses CSCR boxes. [I think Franklin says change the caps every 7 years] That pump I have set at 45-80 psi and that keeps it running when filling the tank and likely under any use, so my cycling is nil without the extra run time of the CSV. I would use the CSV in a small cabin or house where I didnt want to fool with or have room for a tank. With that big bandwidth of pressure, I have used a regulator at some houses and set it at 50.

I don't buy the unpleasant pressure swings in a shower with a tank system, even with a big differential. Most shower heads now regulate the flow to a certain GPM or at least as long as the washer lasts - and if not, BFD girls! Be glad you got water, and even hot!

Only pump that died early was a Flowtech [Floptech] that got into a muddy well. Although the Franklin motor on it is still good and a replacement motor costs more than the whole pump. Go figure. I'll buy them for the motor and toss the pump head or put it in a cistern.

You have done a very good job of simulating how a CSV works. So i am sure you do get good life from those pumps. Your 45/80 pressure switch eactly simulates the backpressure of a CSV. And the 50# regulator holds good steady pressure like a CSV so you don't see the wide pressure swings from 45 to 80. The larger tank extends your run times even longer than a CSV normally does. But extending the run time and making sure the pump stays on for the smallest load is how a CSV eliminates cycling, which is what makes pumps last longer.

Good job. But a CSV would have just made it simpler and easier.
 
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Ballvalve

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Unless it was dragged by a car on a gravel road for 100', no sweat. Poly is not like aluminum in an airplane that stress fractures from pressure swings. If it is 100 psi, you might have some concern, but the 160 and 200 PSI poly needs a sharp hatchet to start a problem area.
 

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Franklin Pump Company put a test on your theory on a 2wire pump, by turning it off and on repeatedly and it lasted a total of 4million starts. I think if you have a 3-wire with a control box, It could get even more starts because it's the starting mechanism on the 2-wire pump that goes out, it is built into the pump down the well. The 3-wire has it in the control box and it can be replaced with a new one (Starting Capacitor).

Let's remember that Franklin wants to inflate the reliability of their machines. Another question is what were the exact conditions of the test, in terms of HP and well depth and rate of the cycling. So let's give them 1 million starts as a good possibility. Probably correct as many contactors are rated for 2 or 3 million starts within their rated load. The 2 wire pumps are very tempting in terms of simplicity, but I really like those capacitors and switches "in the air" for replacement and better starting torque. In a big storage tank, great - but 500' down a hole? I'll go for the capacitors where I can see them.
 

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The Franklin 2-wire motors do not have a capacitor.
 
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