UPC Code question about water service sizing

Users who are viewing this thread

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
From what I hear, in many places, a house your size would require a minimum of a 1" water line, so you're short just there.

It may be possible to fairly easily make the connection to the sprinkler takeoff all copper with no restictions, but you won't get 11gpm at a safe velocity through the pipes. A common max flow rate is often given at around 6'/second and with a full 3/4" ID pipe (which you don't have), that only comes to about 8gpm. Going faster than that can cause cavitation damage to the piping system, noise, and is not good.

If the sprinkler system, as designed by the builder, can only reach 1/3 of the lawn, then there's a breach of contract. Check the max limits of small claims court in your area.

In your locale, what size water supply line is required by code?
 

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
sprinklers get to about 2/3 of the lawn. in utah water line size is 3/4". this is what is bothering me if the code allows for protrusions to be put into lines that reduce the water flow from 3/4" copper to 3/4" pex and then put fitting into it that further reduce the volume to about 1/2" which is effectively what i have. the 3/4" as specified by code lasted until the pipe went thru the foundation and then got reduced all before the house saw a drop. can't believe that was the intent of the code-mike mann
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
To make the sprinkler system work, it may need to be zoned to maximize flow to those heads it is feeding. For the designer to design for 11gpm, when a max available is significantly less is irresponsible, and not professional. While it might have worked with a true 11gpm available, the builder saw fit to not make that possible.

Out of curiosity, assuming the sprinklers are on the same tap as any outside water spigots, see how many gpm you can get from that. It should give you a reasonable idea of the max flow.
 
Last edited:

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
using the west side facuet with no other water running it took 1 minute and 15 seconds to fill a 5 gallon jerry can. does the upc have a table similar to irc code p2903.1 which shows the required capacities at point of outlet discharge? thanks-mike mann
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
that's all of 4gpm, no wonder the sprinkler system doesn't work if it was designed for 11gpm. Now, the valve and pipe to that spigot are not 3/4", but it is an indication of the issues. Since that's on the supply side of the PRV, that's not an issue. Note, while a PRV may be code, it should be set to near the max (80psi) to maximize your flow. Don't know what to say, I'm neither a plumber or a lawyer.

What is your static pressure again?
 

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
at the water main it's 55psi. like you i'm in way over my head on this. retired after 40 years in the defense industry but nothing ever taught me how to handle something like this. thats why i'm hoping to find a table like the irc p2903.1 in the upc code because i'm way below the amounts in the table with only 1/3 of the water fixtures turned on and it says they can all be on. build inspectors can't argue with that and i can get the gc-mike
 

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
after all this time the west valley city inspection department has just sent a letter to the home builder telling him that the house is in non-compliance with the plumbing code and other things. not sure where it's going from here as one of the addendums they signed said that the house will meet all applicable building codes before we accepted it so we shall see what happens next. just wanted to say thanks for all your help and advice-mike mann
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
after all this time the west valley city inspection department has just sent a letter to the home builder telling him that the house is in non-compliance with the plumbing code and other things. not sure where it's going from here as one of the addendums they signed said that the house will meet all applicable building codes before we accepted it so we shall see what happens next. just wanted to say thanks for all your help and advice-mike mann


They will make you bring it up to code and raise your taxes because of a improvement.

It may have been to long to go after the builder, and the Inspector must have already passed it.

Just my guess.
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,599
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
You may be in for a long legal process. The city, when they approve the plans for construction, ALWAYS inserts a CYA clause that says they are not responsible for any code violations even if they are approved on the plans. The builder and plumber, however, will assert that they installed it as per the city's approval, using the proper "nominal" pipe sizes, regardless of the actual i.d.s. They are NOT going to decontruct your house without a legal fight which could go on for years, because if they accede on yours, EVERYONE else will jump on board and want their houses "upgraded" also.
 

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
the chief building inspector sent a letter to the home builder saying that the house plumbing system has to meet the requirements of upc table p2903.1 period. at peak demand we have a trickle at the kitchen faucet and none at the west outside faucet. he's requiring the builder to have a independent plumber do the test with a city inspector watching. he also states that the builder is in violation of the irc which is going to be interesting as the builder signed a addendum stating that the house meets all the applicable building code requirements. i could very well bring my neighbors (whom have the same problems into it) and at the very least i think i have grounds for a civil suit against the builder. thanks again for everyones help-mike mann
 

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,599
Reaction score
1,037
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
If the city approved the plumbing diagram and the pipe sizes on it, then even with their caveat they could have some, or a lot of, liability if the plumber installed it that way.
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
If the city approved the plumbing diagram and the pipe sizes on it, then even with their caveat they could have some, or a lot of, liability if the plumber installed it that way.


It is like blaming the pipe layer for getting a bad lay.

The inspector is to blame , not the plumper, even if he had his head up his ass when he installed it.

It is to late now, and the homeowner will lose. You can not fight city hall, and they must have already approved it.

That is how I see it.
 

Gary Swart

In the Trades
Messages
8,101
Reaction score
84
Points
48
Location
Yakima, WA
Not only should the sprinkler system not run through the regulator, it must be separated from the domestic supply with an approved back flow prevention device which is to be certified annually. These are federally required, but not all cities pay attention to the law. Also, with a pressure regulator, even though it is not needed to reduce you pressure, you need a thermal expansion tank. Get rid of the regulator and no need for the expansion tank.
 

mike mann

New Member
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Utah
other than the plumber doing it his way i don't think there ever was a plan. electrical shows on the plans that i have seen but no plumbing other than the location of the drains. could the lack of water have anything with the toilets plugging up? more in 1 1/2 years than our previous house of 25 years. thanks again-mike mann
 

DonL

Jack of all trades Master of one
Messages
5,205
Reaction score
72
Points
48
Location
Houston, TX
other than the plumber doing it his way i don't think there ever was a plan. electrical shows on the plans that i have seen but no plumbing other than the location of the drains. could the lack of water have anything with the toilets plugging up? more in 1 1/2 years than our previous house of 25 years. thanks again-mike mann


As long as the toilets fill then they should flush.

I would say No.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
The quality of the toilet and proper drain pipe installation (well, what you put down it can make a difference too, at least to a point) are what determine how well a toilet flushes. They are NOT all created equal, and some of the old standbys do not always produce reliable, quality products. As long as the water level in the tank is proper, the toilet's not plugged, and the flapper opens the proper amount of time to release the design amount of water, that's as good as the toilet gets. Some are a lot better than others. Water pressure has nothing to do with it (unless you're using a pressure assist or Flowmaster type flushing system). You need enough pressure to operate the fill valve, but other than that, volume in and of itself is not a factor...it may just take longer to refill.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks