Universal flapper won't stay up on gerber

[Archibald Tuttle]

i have not encountered this problem before and i've been through hundreds of toilets. the universal flapper doesn't stay up when flushed. i worked with the chain length from the flush handle to make sure i was lifting it as far as possible but it slams shut immediately upon releasing the handle.

i have seen that fluidmaster makes a 5051 with a float on the chain that you set to accentuate the float of the flapper. i've never needed that before.

i can't really tell. i don't think the overflow tube is closer to the actual opening. i can't figure out why the air in the flapper itself doesn't serve the normal function.

i tend to view this kind of problem as a water saving device, but the tenant i'm servicing doesn't want to invest that opportunity costs to hold the handle for the extra 10 seconds to get a full flush. i can't say in this fast paced world that i really blame her and i'm perplexed as to what phenomenon might make this occur where i usually don't have problems with these universal flappers.

thanks

brian

 

[Gary Swart]

Flappers on modern toilets (low flow) do not stay up. They open and close very quickly. On my Toto toilets, the chain on the flapper is as tight as it can be without holding the flapper open. On old water hogs, the entire tank was drained on every flush. On our new ones, on a small portion of the water is used. Takes some rethinking to get used it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WJcandee]

Okay, help us here. Forget about what's going on inside the tank. When you push the handle with no waste in the bowl and let go, does the toilet flush? I mean, like, empty the bowl and refill it? Or does it start the process and terminate mid-cycle?

I ask because as Gary points out, modern low-flow flappers stay open long enough only to empty about half the tank, on average. That's all that's needed to do the cycle. The extra water in the tank is to provide water pressure at the head of the flush valve. But only about half drains.

So if the toilet flushes fine, forgetting about what's going on in the tank, then it's fine.

If it does NOT cycle properly, then you do have an issue. Chain length and sometimes direction of pull affect flapper performance.

Do you want to post a photo or photos of what's going on in there, so we can see?

As an example, here's a properly-performing Toto Drake, doing what it should. As you can see, only half the tank drains, but that's all it takes to get that great GMax flush. A huge amount of water exits through that 3" flapper in next to no time.

 

[Gary Swart]

My Toto Dartmouth uses about 3.5 inches per normal flush. That's way, way less that half the tank. May get around to measure it someday. That's a Round to it.

 

[DonL]

I have one like that, I call it my Water Saver.

I would not think to fix it properly. That is a nice feature.

It is great for #1.

Holding the handle beats fetching the water.

 

[hj]

Does your flapper have a round hole for the overflow pipe in addition to the two ears and if so did you slide it over the overflow pipe before snapping to the two lugs on the side? IF so, cut the piece with the overflow opening off and just use the two ears.

 

[Archibald Tuttle]

Okay, help us here. Forget about what's going on inside the tank. When you push the handle with no waste in the bowl and let go, does the toilet flush? I mean, like, empty the bowl and refill it? Or does it start the process and terminate mid-cycle?

I ask because as Gary points out, modern low-flow flappers stay open long enough only to empty about half the tank, on average. That's all that's needed to do the cycle. The extra water in the tank is to provide water pressure at the head of the flush valve. But only about half drains.

So if the toilet flushes fine, forgetting about what's going on in the tank, then it's fine.

If it does NOT cycle properly, then you do have an issue. Chain length and sometimes direction of pull affect flapper performance.

Do you want to post a photo or photos of what's going on in there, so we can see?

As an example, here's a properly-performing Toto Drake, doing what it should. As you can see, only half the tank drains, but that's all it takes to get that great GMax flush. A huge amount of water exits through that 3" flapper in next to no time.

thanks for specific thoughts and questions. here's the deal. if you hold the flapper up it flushes fine w or without a load. this is not a case of just emptying half the tank and my wondering why it doesn't empty tank all the way, vis-a-vis folks who pointed out the flappers are more parsimonious in the 1.6 era. the second you let go of the flapper it just slams shut. it has no open retention time at all. so your only option is to hold the flapper until you get a whirlpool and then let up. i didn't time it but 7 or 10 seconds on a guess.

i am aware what a good flush looks like and that the tank doesn't empty all the way. i just have not seen even one of these universal flappers behave like this in the past. the chain is short just lone enough to allow closure. the lift is up and very slightly back at the apex of when the flush handle is pulled. the flapper is quite close to overflow tube. this does not appear to be a case where the flapper is not being pulled open enough to allow for normal operation.

i did order a fluidmaster 5051 as an add-on to an online order i had it was pretty cheap and free shipping. i don't think i have actually every used one of these before but i've seen them. it has float partway up the flush chain that accentuates the buoyancy of the flapper until the water level reaches the float. you can adjust it along the chain. i'm going to give that a try and will report once i get it on monday, but if you've got anything based on these symptoms lets me know. meanwhile i'll video the old unit working --- eer or not working when i'm there monday.

thanks,

brian

 

[Gary Swart]

I had to install a new flapper a couple of weeks ago on my Dartmouth. I could not locate the proper one locally, so I bought a Korky Universal. Didn't work right. Fiddled with the adjustment, but not right.
Found the correct one on line and ordered 2. Perfect. Not saying that your problem is the same, but something to consider. At the same time, you have a Gerber, I have a Toto, and not to get into brand preferences, they are different, so the problems may or may not be the same.

 

[Archibald Tuttle]

I had to install a new flapper a couple of weeks ago on my Dartmouth. I could not locate the proper one locally, so I bought a Korky Universal. Didn't work right. Fiddled with the adjustment, but not right.
Found the correct one on line and ordered 2. Perfect. Not saying that your problem is the same, but something to consider. At the same time, you have a Gerber, I have a Toto, and not to get into brand preferences, they are different, so the problems may or may not be the same.

gary,

fair enough, universal only goes so far these days. was your problem similar to the one i reported. the flapper not staying open at all on its own after pulling the flush handle?

 

[Plumbs Away]

i have not encountered this problem before and i've been through hundreds of toilets. the universal flapper doesn't stay up when flushed. i worked with the chain length from the flush handle to make sure i was lifting it as far as possible but it slams shut immediately upon releasing the handle.

i have seen that fluidmaster makes a 5051 with a float on the chain that you set to accentuate the float of the flapper. i've never needed that before.

i can't really tell. i don't think the overflow tube is closer to the actual opening. i can't figure out why the air in the flapper itself doesn't serve the normal function.

i tend to view this kind of problem as a water saving device, but the tenant i'm servicing doesn't want to invest that opportunity costs to hold the handle for the extra 10 seconds to get a full flush. i can't say in this fast paced world that i really blame her and i'm perplexed as to what phenomenon might make this occur where i usually don't have problems with these universal flappers.

thanks

brian

It sounds like a possible issue is no slack in the chain. I have had the same experience when the chain is too tight. I have also found that, due to various factors, some of the universal flappers are too heavy for some of the newer toilets due to heavier components of the flapper. If your Gerber is one of the models with a 3" flush valve, their stock flapper is #99-770. For the 2", #99-647. Google them. They are inexpensive and readily available by mail order. If it's 2", the red Korky is a perfect universal replacement. Many toilet manufacturers have reengineered the tanks on low-flow toilets so that the float on the flapper chain is no longer needed.

 

[hj]

how about a picture of the inside of the tank with the flapper and chain attached.