Unions. Yes or NO?

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Master Plumber 101

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Terry,

I guess in the end the attitude and confidence you display is what every plumber, union or not should always display. We are all skilled tradesman and if anyone of us does not like the situation we're in we can leave.I will call it truce, we are all plumber's, union or not we have the same goal, Git-er -done. I did not set out to bash anyone and did not cut anyone down and if I did, I aplogize.


We all can just agree to disagree.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Yikes, Gary social engineering?
Well yes, when you suggest the government do something about WalMart wages etc. etc., what is it if not social engineering?

So many times it is the luck of the draw for people. There are people who can fall arse backwards into money, into good luck, into love, into great opportunities. They are just lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time, most of the time they had much more going for them from the start. Am I my brothers keeper?
Luck... to me luck is being prepared for an opportunity when it presents itself and knowing how to decide as to what is an opportunity. IOWs I believe people create their own "luck" but far too many want to stay in the condition they find themselves rather than take any risks.

Are you your brothers keeper... Yes as long as you don't just feed him fish, house and clothe him instead of teaching him how to fish and get over his inabilities to bait his own hooks and learn where to throw the baited hooks. If you aren't doing that, then you are an enabler making him dependent on you and all others.

I have a girlfriend whose husband died even sooner than my own, her son was only 5 at the time. She was a Walmart worker trying to support herself and her son. It couldn't be done.
She should have insisted that he have at least 5 yrs worth of income in life insurance. That's the first thing I did right after getting married in 1964. I still have some.

But "lucky" for her that 'some' hadn't forced WalMart to pay more AND HIRE fewer people or she would have probably not had the opportunity to work there and would have been flipping hamburgers for a lot less and wouldn't have increased her abilities and self confidence by learning how to overcome her 'feelings' about driving a fork lift. Had she not "lucked out" with that job, she may have never gone to college because of fear, and other destructive 'feelings'.

Far too many people today FEEL their way through life instead of THINKING through their choices before making them. They just go along with the crowd (read mob), right down the tube, and that is not the fault of industry, employers or the government.

Now since I've heard of your friend, I could tell you about all the people that have used WalMart and other low paying jobs to make their own "luck" and end up owning their own businesses or that have moved to other companies based on their work ethic and record of showing up on time and willingness to do whatever they were asked to do WITHOUT WHINING etc. etc. at those first jobs, to much higher paying jobs and positions.

"She struggled"... as if that is a bad thing? Life is not fair, nevre will be because it never has been. Struggles EARN people self esteem, self confidence and allows them to learn how to get over their unfounded FEARS and take risks, and it should teach them to learn from their mistakes. Which if they don't, they usually fall into gossip with anyone that will listen about all the things that have happened to them and blame others for their problems; and many of the ones that listen to them then compound the person's problems by nodding their heads in agreement and gossiping with them about their own problems and they all spiral down the drain, together, so to speak.

BTW, is she proud of what she accomplished? If so, then she's normal because people that struggle and overcome are PROUD, they stand straighter and smile a lot too, unless they got stuck in some long ago anger.
 

Master Plumber 101

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Are you your brothers keeper... Yes as long as you don't just feed him fish, house and clothe him instead of teaching him how to fish and get over his inabilities to bait his own hooks and learn where to throw the baited hooks. If you aren't doing that, then you are an enabler making him dependent on you and all others.

I agree we should take responsibility in our own lives, but should we not have some compassion also? We can teach a man to fish, the problem is nobody want's to pay for it. I would rather see our tax dollar's spent on our own people in need vs give break's to people who honestly don't need it. Right now the middle class and lower income are the one's who need the break. There are alot of people who no doubt take advantage of assistance, some make it out some don't, but it's our duty as the greatest nation in the world to continue to try. At least target the children because in the end they need us the most.
 

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Ok, Gary, I will try to be harder. No problem.:)
Is she proud of her struggle into becoming what she did out of hardships? I don't know.
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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vote for Obama......

I agree we should take responsibility in our own lives, but should we not have some compassion also? We can teach a man to fish, the problem is nobody want's to pay for it. I would rather see our tax dollar's spent on our own people in need vs give break's to people who honestly don't need it. Right now the middle class and lower income are the one's who need the break. There are alot of people who no doubt take advantage of assistance, some make it out some don't, but it's our duty as the greatest nation in the world to continue to try. At least target the children because in the end they need us the most.


Sounds like a commmercial to vote for Obama..

hope and compassion.......



I agree with Gary Sussler....

If it were not for all the nasty jobs and low paying jobs
out there, and all the injustice and abuse people have to endure

they would not be compelled on to make their lives better
by going to shcool , getting an education ect......


.
 
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Cass

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Unfournately...it can be worse...but I won't vote for blue sky and that is all he is offering
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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I cut my hand playing in eeeeeeeeeeeeww.gif today and I contacted the union hall stating I needed better working conditions...


they laid me off.




Wow! I didn't even have to use four usernames to write that!
 

Redwood

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I'll bet!
Like how not to know your code and how to install pedestal sinks with toggle bolts?:cool:
 

Gary Slusser

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I agree we should take responsibility in our own lives, but should we not have some compassion also? We can teach a man to fish, the problem is nobody want's to pay for it. I would rather see our tax dollar's spent on our own people in need vs give break's to people who honestly don't need it. Right now the middle class and lower income are the one's who need the break. There are alot of people who no doubt take advantage of assistance, some make it out some don't, but it's our duty as the greatest nation in the world to continue to try. At least target the children because in the end they need us the most.
Yes there should be compassion. IMO our old welfare system had none. It made people dependent on the system with no chance of getting off or out of the system and allowed millions to squat in the system for generations to the tune of billions of dollars. So what do you mean no one wants to pay for it, we have paid and currently are paying for the new refined system. And it includes teaching fishing.

IMO to try makes some of us 'feel' good but, it actually means to fail, you can not try and actually succeed, you must do it to succeed. Anything less than doing 'it' is a failure, or practice, meaning ya didn't get it done.
 

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So what do you do Gary?
By the way 101, you are absolutely correct in what Gary highlighted above.

We are the greatest nation in the world, not a perfect nation. It is amusing to me how everyone has the answers so long as not a dime comes out of their wallets. And, when it does it is whine, whine, whine. BUT, keep flying that flag. What made our nation great is one fact our govn won't purposely, let human beings go hungry. We take care of our own. We have a welfare system. Now think about that word. WELFARE. What does this word mean? Let's break it down. It is a noun. It is Middle English meaning to fare well: and to give aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need; and agency or program through which such aid is distributed.

It is amusing to me that people who pay taxes think they have the God given right to determine who really is hungry and who is not. I love this saying,
it tickles my funny bone and makes me laugh:

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." Chinese Proverb

Oh, my goodness everyone thinks this is the greatest thing in the world, in reality it is a cop out, here let me tell you why.
Because someone has to pay for his rod, or his line, or his hook, or his bait first~~ I GUESS he could go out there with his bare hands... or sharpen a stick, but then what about a license? Is it one hook per person? A one time thing?

I wonder how many people know about the poverty in China, and even realize this stupid saying is a Chinese Proverb!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Chinahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China Everything always sounds so good in theory. Until, it is put to practice.

http://www.heartsandminds.org/blog/blog25.htm

I always kind of liked this chinese proverb:
A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood
 
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Garydaplummer

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Thank you

And six pages of posts later we've posted what? Unions work for some, not for others, we're all great at what we do, we apparently have a bit of pride in what we do, many of us agree you make your own conditions, live with them or move on. Some years ago I was taking a class on problem-solving and the instructor said there are two words to use when someone is complaining about a situation they're in - "so what?". Not so what, it's not important, rather so what are YOU going to do about it. That has stuck with me for years.

My Union experience has been very good for 23 years, I've moved into being a signed contractor and am keeping very busy, making some good money as well. That being said I would not post here telling you it's been all roses. I won't fill up more space with unfounded opinions on one segment of our profession being better than another. I've worked around hundreds of Union and non-Union plumbers and pipefitters for years and found little difference in the ones who really put forth an effort in this trade.

The thank you heading is because I'm suffering a bit of insomnia and was up at 3:00 this morning wide awake. Thanks to your posts it's now 4:45 and I can go back to bed and have no trouble sleeping (only kidding folks). Keep up the good work and move on from this back and forth banter. This is counter-productive to our craft.

Good night
 

Cass

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There are people who from time to time find them selfs in a predicament that they have no control over. It is those people who need help.

Before there was welfare there was alms and many country's did poorly at it and as far as I know we are the only country that has nursing homes for old folks. If there are other country's with them there aren't many and we started them.

All systems will have abuse...that is a given. There will always be people who need help from other people. Always.
 
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Cookie

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My point is about corperate greed. Funny, "greed" does make people work together.

It is the largest cooperations that need to be corrected, because they do the most amount of harm to others, because their are so many others. They can force unfair wages, unfair work practices and crappy insurance, so crappy it is not worth using, and remember folks these cooperations do it at suffering of others.

The bottom line is simply, human beings deserve to be paid or compensated fairly for their work. Period.

I don't know how anyone can not agree to this, you would have to be brain dead. It might and probably will take a union to do so.

How hard is this to understand.
 
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Cass

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Famous Quote from Thomas Jefferson
t_space.gif



"If the American people ever allow private banks
to control the issue of their money,
first by inflation and then by deflation,
the banks and corporations that will
grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property
until their children will wake up homeless
on the continent their fathers conquered."
 

Master Plumber 101

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The bottom line is simply, human beings deserve to be paid or compensated fairly for their work. Period.

I don't know how anyone can not agree to this, you would have to be brain dead. It might and probably will take a union to do so.

How hard is this to understand.

Agree!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Cass

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I fully agree that workers should be paid a fair wage...no problem with that...how do we determine what that wage is...if a worker at Wally World is making $8.00/hr. as a cashier and it is not a fair wage would $9.00 or $10.00 or $11.00 make it a fair wage or would $13.00 or $15.00 or $18.00 or $20.00?

How do we figure the fair wage amount for the job they are doing?
 
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