Unions. Yes or NO?

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Jimbo

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Don't get me started on public employee unions! Here in San Diego, the city council crooks have been in the back pocket of the unions. An average city worker....be it clerk, garbage collector, etc. is not only getting wages significantly higher than the private sector, with princely medical to boot! ALSO, after 20 years with the city, you can retire at age 55 with about 75% of your pay. Work 30 years, or to age 65, and you can get in excess of 100% of your final pay. With medical to boot!


Yes, the city is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, they are proposing a new sales tax, a $52 property tax add on to pay for fire protection, etc. etc.
 

Master Plumber 101

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If people think unions are no good then countine to work for peanuts. I would be curious what a non union plumber makes per hour, I bet not as much as a union plumber. Beside the wages and benefits are we strong when we stand united or apart? And the auto companies are not in trouble because of the demands of the members, but buy the high gas prices which started to rise in March 2003, hint;(we invaded Iraq). No one complains when the big shots of the companies get crazy bounuses or pay, but when the people make demands on what they want there evil and crazy. And Please everyone quit refering to union guys hiding on jobs and not pulling there own weight,AGAIN IF A PERSON DOES NOT PRODUCE THEY WILL BE LET GO!


I will give you one of my encounters with a non union shop. I was

a foreman on a job and met the electrical foreman, he was with Town and

Country electric in Wisconsin. This is the largest non union shop in the state.

After talking awhile and asking question I found he had to supply his own tools

(union sparkys have to supply there own hand tools) Power tools etc.. He had a company truck,he had to pay for his own gas, they did repairs and oil changes. He also had to pay for his own health insurance, and he only made $26 per hour. If this is the glory of going non union to avoid paying dues, no thanks. I will also bet non union plumbers have to supply all there own power tools and hand tools. WHAT A JOKE!!!!
 

Master Plumber 101

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Cities and counties are not going belly up because of the employees, your elected officials are to blame. Don't forget the cost of everythihg is going up, if you can go with out certain services try it. I will bet you won't like that to much.
 

Herk

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hj said:
But do you understand why the auto manufacturers and steel companies are on the ropes.

There are a lot of reasons, and they don't all have to do with high wages and benefits.

First, there's the free market that has been pushed since Reagan - the idea that there is no protectionism and the foreign competitors can do whatever they want, including buying a company in your country. Free markets do not work.

And second, the auto companies were completely blind to what the market wanted to buy - they are (somewhat) coming around now with alternative fuel cars and so on, but it's too little too late. Honda has been incredibly successful with their hybrids, and it isn't because they're cheap. Nor is it because Japan's labor is cheap. While the foreign markets were importing Fiats that would get 50 mpg, Detroit was still shoving leviathans down our throats.

And a lot of U.S. cars simply fall apart - I'll mention the Citation and that's 'nuff said.

In the case of steel, Swedish steel factories were subsidized by their government and could sell steel cheaper than we could. I personally think that the steel factories needed to be kept open for the security of production during wartime, but the concept of buying cheap labor and goods wherever they're made isn't going to go away any time soon.
 

Master Plumber 101

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Roughly 2-2500 take home pay a month. Realistically that boat doesn't float in today's way of wage earning. Poverty wages at best. And people wonder why they all crowd into one house for living reasons to save on the bills...




The MAJORITY of businesses in the United States are Non-Union. There is more waste in a union shop than ever in a non-union.

3 watch 1 works...that's what I recall. A man with 20 more credentials than another doesn't even get wage benefit for his ability to multi-task, create a personal wealth? Once you hit a scheduled point in those shops, eeeeeeeeeeverybody makes the same and some pull their weight, others do the bare minimum which makes it difficult to work at achieving a positive work attitude when somebody next to you is making the same, but brings home more because he's got 3 more kids than you.

Remember, it's the water down theory in a union; keeps you learning new stuff all the time, putting you in different scenarios or "unknown" territories because this keeps you from getting an edge. Most times you can't do what you want to do.....you're put where they need you.

Wanna work and can't travel? You can be screwed quite quickly with that attitude. Now you're imposing stipulations to the place that employs you.


When you're in the union, you have blinders on and can't see outside of that focus. I was there, numerous times and didn't like to listen to others, complaining about why they are NOT in the union anymore.


I saw a guy that was a top dog foreman that was making $2 more than anyone else for being a supervisor, could handle the most difficult tasks (from the ground up on hospitals) and had a slight heart attack in the results of stress) and had to remove himself from the position.


They was so pissed at this guy that they refused to employ him, had him sit on the bench indefinitely. He wanted a less stress job and they wanted all or nothing.

Starved him right out of the union by doing skip-overs on the bench. Guy had a family of 5 and was a great worker until luck ran out.

Some of the best non-union companies prove that another intermediate association is not required to produce a comfortable and reliable reputation both in staffing and end product reliability.

Toyota :p
Toyota if I' not mistaken has a union factory in the states.
 

Cass

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I wonder what Jimmy Hoffa would say to this question if we could interview him....
 

hj

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question

How much paid vacation time do auto workers get a year? My steel worker neighbor used to get 13 weeks, (a fourth of a year), every year. Exhorbitant salaries for executives and sports figures are also obscene but that is the fault of the various groups, again because they do not want to take a chance that they will lose something if they do not capitulate and give in to ALL demands. As long as unions had the ability to shut down an industry, or worse a single company in the industry, they had great power to dictate the terms of any agreement.
 

Cass

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I used to do work for GM union rep that worked at the plant in Dayton OH. 90% of the time all he did was go into work and drink till he passed out and then go home...He would cut back his drinking during contract negotiations and minor grievances then go back to the daily routine when they were over...He made $130,000.00 + / yr. and that was back in the 90s
 

Gary Slusser

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I have been a union member in a number of jobs and industries since 1965; power company lineman, electronics troubleshooter, rail car welder, teamster, and independent trucking owner/operator.

At one time unions were needed to counteract the callous robber baron mentality of most industries and many business owners. But then the unions, and most of their members, became as corrupt in their thinking and actions as the robber barons they replaced.

IMO, based on all the laws and regulations etc. in force today, unions are no longer needed and are a detriment to our economy because they make their membership dependent on them and stifle growth and innovation.
 

Jadnashua

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I find it very annoying when doing something simple in a union shop where you are say moving furniture when for some reason, an applicance might need to be unplugged...the millrights can't touch it, and then sit there while an electrician is called. If you touch it, it's a 4-hour minimum payment to the union for taking their job. You can't carry a small box from one area to another, or it's a grievance. This is not very efficient at all. I'm not advocating someone doing something they are eminantly unqualified for, but hey sometimes it gets crazy.

Unions got us from the slave labor situations and served a purpose. Today, I think they're overblown and counter-productive.
 

NHmaster

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According to federal statistics the average pay for non union plumbers is 44 grand a year. Hardly enough to keep gas in the caddy:D
 

NHmaster

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because Wal Mart grabs people off the streets and put's them to work in their sweat shops with leg irons on and takes away all of their free will. Once you work at Wal-Mart you can never ever leave or do anything that Wal-Mart doesn't want you to do. You are a slave for life. :D
 

Master Plumber 101

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$44,000 is in my opinion an insult to plumber's (Licensed). People complain about union's, but by far they provide a more fruitful life for the worker. Union official's and the president from time to time need to be put in there place that's why there elected in that position, and if the member's don't like something they have the power to change it. It boggle's my mind to see so much individualism in our great nation. We as a nation let this happen to ourselfs by letting the politician's divide us over non-sence issues,by doing this we have inner fighting amongest the common folk and they pass all there legislation to benefit them and there friend's. I'm not going to change mind's if your's is already made up, I just think as a nation we should be united with one voice and show we are worth something.
 

NHmaster

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Years ago, plumbers in this country were a united group. Now we have become a free for all. The PHCC used to be our forum for change and protection in the trade, now it's a bunch of self serving beaurocrats, more interested in sucking up to manufacturers than standing by it's members. Where was the PHCC when waterless urinals were introduced among many other travisties of todaays plumbing (like the IPC) ?
 
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