Two pole arc fault breakers for multi wire circuits

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Houptee

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Why not build what you need, use a separate meter socket with outdoor main panel like the ones Reach4 posted, connect them with a offset nipple or short piece of conduit?
 

Vegas_sparky

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IMO extending old circuits, ESPECIALLY multi-wire circuits, is a last resort. I'd run new for new things.
Installing AFCI on old circuit is asking for trouble.

I agree the old circuits could lead to a lot of tripping problems with AFIs. These same old unprotected circuits could also present a higher fire risk than more modern installations, which is why some municipalities are pushing for AFI installations.

Is this something they have in writing, or are you just blindly doing what they want?
It is NOT required to install AFCI's for a panel change unless there is some weird local amendment.

The AHJ is requesting the installation, and the OP should really inquire as to why they are being so. Its not uncommon, and the OP will have to determine if the fight is worth taking on. With a limited budget, it could get upside down really quick.
 
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Why not build what you need, use a separate meter socket with outdoor main panel like the ones Reach4 posted, connect them with a offset nipple or short piece of conduit?

Twelve spaces, carefully managed, will get the job done. I expect to use nine.

I will be running four new circuits to the kitchen (conduit on the outside of the house) and I can protect them with two spaces. Kitchen circuits don't need arcfault, so I can use tandems. Three wire circuits (which I will be using) need the paired breakers to be tied together as a 240v breaker would. Tandem two pole breakers take up two spaces, have four circuits, which are tripped in pairs, as the code requires.

Likewise, I will be adding four circuits that do not need arcfault, so those will be protected with tandems, and take up two spaces. These will have their own neutrals, so don't need to be tied together.

I'm just trying to avoid rewiring the house where I don't need to. I will be replacing all the outlets and switches, and I won't be splicing the neutrals on the receptacles, but rather giving them pigtails, as required by code. I will be more fastidious, if that is possible, to assure that all wire nuts are new and tight, and that all connections at switches and receptacles are tight. I do not use backstabs, I don't trust them.

Yes, I could use a separate meter socket and a larger panel, but there is no room on the lot for an extension of the house, and with three open spaces, I can still install airconditioning (using a triplex breaker) and add a few circuits. That said, I might do it.

Honestly, I am considering just merging the two circuits in the bedroom half of the house, rather than having a three wire circuit. It is only 600 sq ft, if that. One 15 amp circuit is sufficient, especially as I will be installing a home run 20 amp dedicated circuit for the bathroom outlet.
 

DonL

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Twelve spaces, carefully managed, will get the job done. I expect to use nine.

I will be running four new circuits to the kitchen (conduit on the outside of the house) and I can protect them with two spaces. Kitchen circuits don't need arcfault, so I can use tandems. Three wire circuits (which I will be using) need the paired breakers to be tied together as a 240v breaker would. Tandem two pole breakers take up two spaces, have four circuits, which are tripped in pairs, as the code requires.

Likewise, I will be adding four circuits that do not need arcfault, so those will be protected with tandems, and take up two spaces. These will have their own neutrals, so don't need to be tied together.

I'm just trying to avoid rewiring the house where I don't need to. I will be replacing all the outlets and switches, and I won't be splicing the neutrals on the receptacles, but rather giving them pigtails, as required by code. I will be more fastidious, if that is possible, to assure that all wire nuts are new and tight, and that all connections at switches and receptacles are tight. I do not use backstabs, I don't trust them.

Yes, I could use a separate meter socket and a larger panel, but there is no room on the lot for an extension of the house, and with three open spaces, I can still install airconditioning (using a triplex breaker) and add a few circuits. That said, I might do it.

Honestly, I am considering just merging the two circuits in the bedroom half of the house, rather than having a three wire circuit. It is only 600 sq ft, if that. One 15 amp circuit is sufficient, especially as I will be installing a home run 20 amp dedicated circuit for the bathroom outlet.


Good Luck if your Inspector don't micro inspect your work. It may not pass.


Just buy lunch, and you should be OK.
 
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Good Luck if your Inspector don't micro inspect your work. It may not pass.


Just buy lunch, and you should be OK.

I could not see why not. 12 spaces/24 circuits. Five arcfaults take up five spaces. The kitchen on a tandem duplex is four circuits with mutual trip for the three wire circuits, two spaces four circuits. Four circuits not needing arc fault (laundry, fridge, bath outlet, bath heater) on two tandems, not mutually tripping because none of these will share any neutrals.

Nine spaces for 13 circuits. I should be fine.
 
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Aw, rats! "In 210.12(A), kitchens and laundry areas have been added to the rooms or areas requiring AFCI protection."

Does 210/12(A) require that the small appliance circuits (counter top outlets) in the kitchen be Arcfault? What of the circuit for a microwave or garbage disposal/dishwasher? Or a dedicated circuit for a fridge? What about the power to bathroom outlets? Or a dedicated circuit for a ceiling heater in a bathroom?

If so, twelve spaces certainly are NOT going to get the job done.
 

Vegas_sparky

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Relax. That article is for 2014 NEC. Will you have to adhere to that standard?

Combination breakers/devices will be the way to go in the future.
 

Vegas_sparky

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Definitely ask! I don't know of any jurisdictions which follow cover edition in the same calandar year. Find out which edition of the NEC they are currently enforcing, when they will change to the next, and if a printout of local amendments is available. Without that information, you're just guessing which can cost you a lot of time and money.
 
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DonL

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You will need to be up to speed or the inspector may not pass the work.

Depends on the Inspector.

It may be hard to use old code on a new install.


The Gov don't care about the permit date, But they will want the new Fees for the new 2014 rules.


Good Luck.
 

Jadnashua

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It all looks like a crap shoot for a while, until the code settles in.

This is dumb.

Maybe the best approach is to sell the customer on the newest things, and that they may make it easier to sell the house in the future, and you never know, it might actually help. Not a good choice...and, I'm sure, a hard sell.
 
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Maybe the best approach is to sell the customer on the newest things, and that they may make it easier to sell the house in the future, and you never know, it might actually help. Not a good choice...and, I'm sure, a hard sell.

My latest client is on a TIGHT budget. A friend of a friend. Nearly charity. She is a single mother of two, a school teacher. She is deep in it. She should have purchased the condo as advised, but she just could not be told.

So, I have a fiduciary duty to do it as cheaply as possible without compromising on safety.

For the pompous out there: I assume you have been installing arcfault breakers on every circuit for the last ten years, as a reflection of your concerns for safety, yes? Likewise gfci behind refrigerators, yes? From the day it came on the market?
 
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