Troubleshooting lack of water from well.

[Boerdoc]

I have an 80 foot deep well that has never run so low in 10 years that I have been here. It feeds into a 4000 gal cistern that is then pumped into the house. What is the process of evaluating water pumping capacity, not just gallons per minute but also total draw down?

This well has an old pumptec or some other pump protection device that has no lights to indicate function. It has a small air tank as well. Ahead of the pressure switch in the well casing there is a CSV as well.

1. From what I have read here it may be that the pumptec is not working well with the CSV or just not working...??
2. The pressure switch could be going out, not likely though.
3. The well is running low on water!! Possible and what needs to be determined.

Last night I opened the cistern lid, removed the valve regulating the water into the cistern, reset the breaker to the well pump at the breaker panel which turned the pump on.(I do not know how long it was off) This pumped only about 10-15 gallons of water. (not measured, just eye-balled). Then it stopped flowing.

How do I test the well capacity eliminating the parts in the circuit as a possible issue? I would be very happy if it simply meant that I needed a new Cycle Sensor to replace the old (+10 years) pumptec.

I could shut off the breaker for an hour, turn it back on and watch and measure the water coming out before it stops flowing. doing the math it would give me the amount of water per day possibly.

Any advice would be helpful.

 

[Valveman]

You need to figure out what is causing the water to stop coming into the cistern. Is the well pumping dry, or is the pumtec or overload shutting the pump off? A clip around amp meter is the best way to do this. You can disconnect the pumptec, so it can't shut the pump off. Then check the amps while the pump is running. If the amps go to zero, the overload in the motor is probably tripping. If the amps drop to about 50%, you are pumping the well dry.

 

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[Boerdoc]

Thanks Valveman, it should be easy to bypass the pumptec. With the clip around meter do I clip around all wires at once right by the pumptec (where I bypass)?

"""If the amps go to zero, the overload in the motor is probably tripping. If the amps drop to about 50%, you are pumping the well dry.""

"Overload in the motor" is that in the pump itself? If so, new pump?

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Valveman, it should be easy to bypass the pumptec. With the clip around meter do I clip around all wires at once right by the pumptec (where I bypass)?

"""If the amps go to zero, the overload in the motor is probably tripping. If the amps drop to about 50%, you are pumping the well dry.""

"Overload in the motor" is that in the pump itself? If so, new pump?

Yes most likely the motor is bad if it trips the overload. But make sure you have a good control box, if applicable. Or make sure you have the right voltage to the motor before just replacing it.

An amp meter only clips around one of the two hot wire coming from the breaker.

 

[Boerdoc]

Thanks Valveman,
I will check it out this evening.

 

[Boerdoc]

My "pumptec" is actually a Franklin 3 wire control box with a pumpsaver installed inside it.
I noticed that the capacitor in the controller is leaking some flaky material. Please see the pics. Does this mean that the control box capacitor is toast?

Since the pumpsaver is inside the control box do I just need to remove it from the control box. Then test the amps. I did test them with the motor running and it was about 6 amps. After it stopped it went to zero, but this was with the pumpsaver.


After turning off the breaker for an hour, I ran the pump and it lasted 3 minutes, 40 seconds and filled a 5 gallon bucket in 20 seconds. My math puts that at 55 gallons per hour recharge, could be less if the pump was off for longer than that hour. I will check again more accurately later.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah you need a new capacitor, but it sounds like it is starting the pump as it rant for 3 minutes. If the motor started out at 6 amps and stayed at 6 amps until it went off, it is probably tripping the overload in the motor and is not the pump saver cutting it off. I would expect the amps to drop from 6 amps to about 3 amps for a few seconds before the pump saver would trip on dry run. If it just dropped to zero from 6 amps, the overload in the motor is most likely tripping out.

 

[Boerdoc]

I ordered a new capacitor. I misunderstood the amperage drop. I measured the amps during running but I was watching the flow until it stopped then went to the panel to check amps. I was probably 20 seconds to get there so it could have dropped to 3 first and then to zero. I was alone so I could not monitor continuously. Tomorrow morning I will remove the pumpsaver and try again with a helper.

Another thought. If I remove the pumpsaver and run it until it stops, then reset the breaker would that reset the pump overload? If so, it would restart the pump and if it stops quickly then I would be certain that it was running dry? If the overload of the pump has a delay on it, then I would I would use the amp drop to determine things.

Thanks Valveman. Also, would a Cycle Sensor be better than the Pumpsaver for this application? If so, I will order it today. Model??

 

[Valveman]

The Cycle Sensor would work great, and the display would tell you more about what is going on. But it sounds like the pumpsaver maybe working. You need to be looking at the amp meter when it pumps dry. If the overload in the motor is tripping, the amps will go from running at six to a higher amperage for a few seconds and then go to zero when the overload trips. If the pumpsaver is working, the amps will go from running at 6, to lower amperage for a few seconds like 3, then drop to zero as the pumpsaver trips.

 

[Boerdoc]

The Cycle Sensor would work great, and the display would tell you more about what is going on. But it sounds like the pumpsaver maybe working. You need to be looking at the amp meter when it pumps dry. If the overload in the motor is tripping, the amps will go from running at six to a higher amperage for a few seconds and then go to zero when the overload trips. If the pumpsaver is working, the amps will go from running at 6, to lower amperage for a few seconds like 3, then drop to zero as the pumpsaver trips.

Since the well is 100 yards uphill from home, could I place a Cycle Sensor in the cellar where the pressure switch is. This would be much easier to monitor if possible, especially when snow is on the ground.

 

[Reach4]

I measured the amps during running but I was watching the flow until it stopped then went to the panel to check amps. I was probably 20 seconds to get there so it could have dropped to 3 first and then to zero.

You may have a camera or cellphone that will take a movie for several minutes that you could point at the meter for the test.

 

[Valveman]

Since the well is 100 yards uphill from home, could I place a Cycle Sensor in the cellar where the pressure switch is. This would be much easier to monitor if possible, especially when snow is on the ground.

Yes the Cycle Sensor just needs to go between the breaker and the pressure switch. It can be just after the breaker, just before the pressure switch, or anywhere in between. I have mine in the garage by the breaker panel so I can see it.

 

[Boerdoc]

You may have a camera or cellphone that will take a movie for several minutes that you could point at the meter for the test.

Great Idea!!

 

[Boerdoc]

Yes the Cycle Sensor just needs to go between the breaker and the pressure switch. It can be just after the breaker, just before the pressure switch, or anywhere in between. I have mine in the garage by the breaker panel so I can see it.

Perfect. My panel is in the garage. I ordered. 1x CS1PH1-2HP230V.......... CYCLE SENSOR w/ NEMA ENCLOSURE

Hopefully that is the correct one.

 

[Valveman]

Perfect. My panel is in the garage. I ordered. 1x CS1PH1-2HP230V.......... CYCLE SENSOR w/ NEMA ENCLOSURE

Hopefully that is the correct one.

Yes that is the right one. You will need to take the pumpsaver out of the control box.

 

[Boerdoc]

I will be doing the final troubleshooting and assessments today. After performing all the tests, I plan to put everything back together with a few changes. I will be replacing the sprinkler valve that controls the filling of the cistern with a Topaz differential valve. I have had to replace the sprinkler valve and 24v transformer twice in 3 years.
I can also put in a flowmeter and control valve to restrict flow into the cistern so that I would have less pump cycling. I already have the flowmeter from the previous cistern. Would this be a good idea or not. If so since the pump is a 15 gpm pump what flow rate would be good to restrict it to. With this meter I can set from 1 to 5 gpm. I could also set the butterfly valve with the meter and then just remove the meter from the system so that there are fewer things to go wrong. Any thoughts about this setup?


BTW, the picture of the meter is not mine just an example. mine is 1 to 5 gals.

Cycle sensor comes on monday, so it's install will be later.

 

[Boerdoc]

I removed the pumpsaver, replaced the capacitor and ran the amperage testing. The amps ran at 5.8 amps until the water stopped flowing. Then it dropped immediately to 4.7 amps. I let it run there for another minute then shut off the breaker. The pump overload never tripped and it stayed at 4.7 until I shut it off. As it is now, to me it looks like I am running out of water, UGH.

Simple calculations mean I have about 60 gals/hour regeration capacity

Any idea on why the motor overload did not trip?

BTW, I edited this post as I reran the test with the meter further from the panel so that I did not get any errors in metering.

 

[Reach4]

Any idea on why the motor overload did not trip?

The motor did not get hot enough to trip the thermal overload. The motor is below the intake. The pump was heating up the water, but you would apparently had to run longer to heat things up to trip.

If you are not already pumping sediment, you may be able to get the pump lowered some.

It may be that some form of well rehabilitation could be used. http://www.ngwa.org/Documents/ClipCopy/Water-Well-Rehabilitation.pdf

A surface storage system is another possibility.

 

[Craigpump]

It didn't trip because the motor isn't the problem. If the motor/pump were failing and causing the amps to climb and the motor to run hot, the internal overload in the motor would trip. The Pumpsaver was doing its job shutting the pump down when it began to run on low amps due to low water level in the well.

 

[Boerdoc]

I installed the Jobe topaz differential valve with the flow rate for filling set at 4 gpm. Doing my calculations, at a regeneration rate of 60 gallons per hour, The pump would cycle less than once per hour. Does that sound about right and is that good or bad.

I will look into getting the well rehabilitated. That sounds like a great option. It is only 80 feet deep and that is as deep as it was dug according to the well drillers report attached. Originally, 26 years ago the discharge rate at drilling was 30 gpm. I would love to have even 2-3 gallons per minute. With a 4000 gallon cistern waiting to be filled!!!!!!