Toto Fill Valve Problem

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Kiko, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. Kiko

    Kiko New Member

    Messages:
    175
    Location:
    Royal Oak, Michigan
    A family member has a Toto toilet. He says, when it is flushed, there is a delay of more than six seconds before it begins refilling the tank. After the long pause, it refills quickly. He said that it used to refill instantly when it was flushed.

    Is the fill-valve on the way out or can it be adjusted?

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2013
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Most of the Toto toilets come with a valve made for them by Korky. If they have that one, the only real wear part in the refill valve is the seal cap, available at Lowes and most hardware stores. It takes about a minute to replace with no tools. That will probably resolve this. But, as long as it doesn't overfill, and does refill the toilet, you can live with it for a long time. The instructions are on the package. Basically, turn the water off, pop the cover off the top of the refill valve, twist the seal cap, remove the cap, put a new cap on, put the cover back on, turn on the water. Details are on the package...cost about $3. This is true for any toilet that uses the Korky refill valves.
  3. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Just clean out the little hole in the bottom of the float housing, and you will be back in business. The thing is designed not to start spilling refill water the moment you pull the handle because that water is wasted. Instead, there is a little check ball and hole in the float housing that retains water in the housing for a couple of seconds to delay the,start of refill until the flapper has closed or is about to close. If it gets schmutz in it, it narrows and delays the onset of refill longer. There are written instructions on the korky web site, as well as links to videos, on how to clean the valve. It requires no tools, is easy, and only takes five minutes. Sometimes just running your finger around under the float housing's end, and over that little hole a couple of times, without doing anything else, will clear it.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  4. Kiko

    Kiko New Member

    Messages:
    175
    Location:
    Royal Oak, Michigan
    Thanks to you both.

    RE: the Korky website, I looked at all their videos on troubleshooting and maintenance of the 528 Quiet Fill, and they don't mention this problem of "delayed fill".

    http://korky.com/quietfill.html

    Is there any reason I can't replace this with a 400A?
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  5. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    No, they don't mention this issue on the site. They tell you generally how to service the valve. Cleaning around that little hole is extra-credit.

    It's an issue I know enough about the valve to tell you how to fix, but it's not a common issue. Cleaning that area is mentioned on this Toto piece, part of Item 8 on the Type B valve: http://www.bayplumbingsupply.com/images/documents/voretolavallefillvalveinstructions-rev06-1.pdf

    The reason you can't replace this with a 400A is that you won't get enough refill. A GMax Toto requires a 40 percent refill ratio; the 400A produces the standard 20%. If you don't get enough refill ratio, the water spot in the bowl will be too low -- eeew -- and when you go to flush part of the flush water will be used to raise the level of water in the bowl and the flush sequence will be off; i.e. the performance will be degraded.

    You want to replace it, replace it with a Korky 528MPK (or MP) from Lowe's. That has a variable refill ratio, from zero to 40%.

    I actually think the 528 is a much better valve than the 400A. I'm not going to give you the litany, because there are old timers on here who swear by the 400A. Suffice it to say that you're doing your relative a disservice by going the Fluidmaster route, particularly since anything on a 528 can be fixed very quickly and easily by non-professionals. And if it's important to you, the 528 is made in Wisconsin while the 400A is hecho en Mexico.

    So just get your relative to run his finger over the bottom of the valve and see if that doesn't fix it. If not, a quick valve service should do it. Then leave it alone, and it should work great for some time to come.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  6. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    Fluidmaster has a 400A version with adjustable refill also. Lots of stuff is "assembled" in the USA but the parts aren't made here.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    The Korky is MUCH quieter during refill and shutoff, and is an easily maintained valve. Most people don't have issues, but some water supplies have issues. Personally, having used both, I prefer the Korky.
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Every bit of the Korky 528 is made here.

    The "adjustable" Fluidmaster 400A, to coin a phrase, sucks. Its refill-adjustment "slider" is not continuously-variable and operates by pinching the rubber hose in one of only 5 "settings". The result is a refill ratio that in my personal experience is not consistent and certainly not as precise as the 528MP.
  9. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    Unless you have some person inside Korky, it's pretty hard to say that every part is made here. I have a Fluidmaster 540AKR box right here an it's clearly marked "Assembled in Mexico" which doesn't mean the parts are made there also. There are US companies that send US made parts to Mexico for assembly.

    What's in the Korky adjustment valve? Just something with a hole that turns to partially block the hole? Don't see much difference between blocking or pinching but continuously variable is better than steps of course.
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,422
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    You can, but it doesn't adjust for bowl fill or overfill
    It's also pretty noisy and can have some water hammer when it shuts off.
    But the 400A has been a basic replacement valve. Basic is the operative word here.
  11. MattH

    MattH New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Washington
    Hi - I have the delayed fill, then fill, then water hammer at the end of cycle - Diagnosis? Thanks!
  12. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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  13. MattH

    MattH New Member

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    Location:
    Washington
    It's a type B -- I did try the clean out as described on that flyer, and can do again but am wondering if the water hammer means I have a non-valve problem. Thanks!
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Location:
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    Cleaning out the area with the check ball on it should solve the slow start. The water hammer could be a variety of things; has it always existed with this valve or did it just start. If it just started, and the valve is a few years old, I might buy that little replacement cap, Korky R528 at Lowe's for less than $3 and see if that doesn't fix it -- did the rubber seal look like a flat disk or did it have deep indentations in it. If the latter, then it's wearing out. There's a video on how to service the Korky 528 on Youtube; you might give that a look as well, although the piece I posted is pretty comprehensive.

    As you know, water hammer is a shock wave that propagates back up a pipe when a valve closes suddenly (hydraulic shock). Although high or excessive static water pressure doesn't create water hammer per se, it can exacerbate it to the point that there's a noticeable wave where before there was a negligible wave. Certainly I would get yourself a little pressure meter with a telltale for less than $10 at the hardware store and leave it on for a day to see what the peak pressure is, and what the pressure is when you are experiencing the hammer. If it's above 80 psi, it's too high -- 60 is fine. If it's rising and falling, you could have a failing or nonexistent pressure reducing valve on your water supply or a failing or nonexistent thermal expansion tank on your water heater (essential if you have a "closed" domestic water system, i.e. a check valve or backflow preventer at your meter or at your pressure reducing valve).
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2014
  15. MattH

    MattH New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Washington
    THANK YOU! Seal was totally indented - re-freeing check valve and replacing the top piece solved both problems -- THANK YOU!

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2013
  16. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    The pleasure is all ours! Glad to have a successful outcome!!
  17. Kiko

    Kiko New Member

    Messages:
    175
    Location:
    Royal Oak, Michigan
    I finally got around to installing this Korky fill-valve.

    I was unable to install the locking clip without removing the whole fill valve and reinstalling it.
    Is there any danger of the height adjuster turning on it's own and raising up to flood my bathroom?
  18. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,983
    Location:
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    The valve is designed so that when there is water pressure (i.e. water supply valve open at wall), there is an upward push against the head of the unit. The locking mechanism is designed to move down slightly when unlocking and up slightly when locking into position. Thus when you turn the water on with the valve locked into the height you want, the water pressure will tend to make it difficult to unlock the valve even if you wanted to. Do make sure you've got it locked in place before turning on the water, and you should be fine.

    I base this opinion also on the fact that Korky now advises in its instructions that the locking clip is to be used by plumbers and multiunit managers only. In other words, folks who want the user not to mess with the thing. Toto may talk about using that clip, but only because they want the valve to be set exactly as per their instructions and not changed, i.e. so it is functioning just like the one they set and installed in the factory.

    I have seven Korky 528s of different flavors (528, 528T, 528MP) installed in our family home and I have not put the clip on a single one, with no problems.
  19. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,422
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I normally install the clip after I'm done adjusting the height. It just slips up in there.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  20. Kiko

    Kiko New Member

    Messages:
    175
    Location:
    Royal Oak, Michigan
    I found that it wasn't easy to clip, even before it was installed. It took a bit of effort.
    Once installed, though, I could not squeeze my hand between the fill valve and the inner wall of the tank to clip it on.

    I'll go along with WJ and not worry about it though.
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